EP 134
Welcome, fellow Confidence Crusaders, neuro nerds, and success equalizers. This is your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.
Alyssa Dver:
I get a lot of pitches. There's no question about it, and from coaches and therapists and all kinds of people who have their own method. But when I got this message from Trevor about his work on anxious attachment, I thought that was really interesting, and I want to understand not only what it is, but how you got to this place. So, Trevor, thank you for being on the podcast.
Trevor Hanson:
Hey, thank you so much for having me here.
Alyssa:
All right, well, before we define what that is, because you know I'm eager, I want to learn a little bit more about you. I read your bio, and you had a very what seemed like a very solid and desirable corporate role position, and then the world fell apart. Tell us, what happened?
Trevor Hanson:
Yeah, so I was working at Tesla, and it was, it was a great, great job. I was kind of right in the heart of the Tesla Gigafactory, where we're like making, at the time, we're building the manufacturing line for the Model Three, and there was like 1000s of people on site. It was just very, very exciting. I had that job for a while, and then I took a different role with them, and there was this wide sweeping layoff across the company, where they were taking, you know, just whole departments and kind of like shutting them down, and all sorts of things, and Elon is good at two things in particular, he's very good at building machinery and rockets and cars, and he's really good at laying people off, and so I got, I got the not so sweet end of the laying off, and at that same time it felt like everything in my world kind of collided all at once, is I broke my jaw in a skiing accident around that same time, but the jaw and the job loss were probably the least impactful out of all of the things that were going on. Yeah, which you would think those are kind of like really big life-changing things, and they were, but I knew I could get another job. I knew my job would heal, and that was easy.
But what had happened is I was in a relationship for kind of that year as well, and it also just fell apart and crumbled into pieces, and it was a, like, an engagement, like we were planning on, like, getting married, and everything else, and, and the relationship itself was nowhere near healthy. It was, it was very unhealthy, but I didn't have the confidence, the self-respect, the clarity to say, you know what, no, like, I'm not doing this. I need to move forward, and that's, you know, speaking of confidence, that's a byproduct of a lack of confidence, is that you stay in things that aren't good for you, because you don't really believe that you're worthy of something better, or you're not confident that you can find somebody else. You feel like that happily ever after is just out of grasp, and you're not going to get it. And I think I had a lot of that going on for me, which is we're already kind of giving a hint at to what the anxious attachment is, if we define it, but because of that, I held on for way too long, and when you hold on for way too long, the pain gets bigger and the breakup gets worse, always, and it did.
And so I was left with kind of all this kind of all this trauma, this hurt, whatever little confidence I had was blown up from the relationship experience, and so I'm there with no job, essentially with no functioning jaw and no relationship, and that's where I decided I really needed to get some sort of help. I'd never done anything like therapy before, and I did some therapy. I started doing that, and I went to like groups, and I started reading books. I did all the things that everybody does, and trying to help themselves, and you know, just trying to gather all this information to figure out what's going to work. And so that's kind of the start of the journey that's taken me towards where I am now.
Alyssa:
Well, I don't think that everyone had the same, has the same, you know, series of events. Those are pretty unique coincidences in that sense, but I think there's a lot of people, myself included, where there's been moments in my life where you're just like, oh my goodness, all the negative stars are aligning and. Is this all happening at once when it rains the poorest kind of thing, but that wasn't just rain, that was life-threatening tornado, kind of like, you know, overturn everything. I'm wondering now that you have hindsight, which is always lovely. Do you think they were all related?
Trevor Hanson:
You know, in a a other than there was some divine guiding hand. No, if you don't consider that, because they're really, they really weren't. Like, I lost my job, not because of my, the things that made the relationship crumble. I got in a skiing accident, broke my jaw due to somebody literally crashing into me on the slopes, and my boss, nor my girlfriend at the time, were there, and so I can't say that they were logistically connected, but I will say that the series of events in the way they happened were a perfect recipe for helping me to really slow down to look at what I needed to change in my life, the humility, and so you know, and everybody has different beliefs around this kind of thing, whether it's God, the universe, or whatever I call it God, and I say I feel like there was a bit of divinely guiding hand that said I think you need this soup of really difficult things for a better purpose, and it's like, are you kidding me? But it was exactly what I needed to make a change.
Alyssa:
Yeah, I mean, again, we could overlay any kind of explanation. It almost points to the fact that something was telling you, hey, wake up, right? Like, you know, stop, stop what you're doing. Let's talk about anxious attachment. Then, so, how did that come out of this, subsequently, what does it mean?
Trevor Hanson:
Yeah, so an anxious attachment, if we boil it down to very simple terms, or an attachment style in general is a description of how a person a feels about themselves and how they function in relationships and how they feel about relationships. It's kind of like our line of code in our programming in our subconscious, and the programming, if you are anxiously attached, you oftentimes have a hard time feeling like you're enough. There's some self-doubt there as part of it, and another part of it is that you've probably got this fear, a fear of like abandonment, rejection, not being chosen, and abandonment might sound like a strong kind of weird word to certain people, but it's quite literally the idea that people aren't going to stick around. I think abandonment, that word, when I first heard it, felt too strong to me. I was like, that sounds like a dad, like stepping out on his family or something like that. And yes, that's one version, version of it. But the fear of abandonment is more like, I'm afraid they're not going to text me back, I'm afraid that they're not interested in me, that they're going to write me off, that I'm not good enough, that like this person that I'm into isn't actually into me, kind of a thing, right? So those fears they play out in different ways for different people, and specifically they play out in for in different ways for the different genders. Actually, women will experience - they'll tend to get into more relationships than men will.
Men are typically anxious, they put on maybe too much pressure in the beginning, they're a little bit clingy or needy, and it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a turn off, and so they, they experience just a lot of rejection, flat out, not a lot of, not a lot of dates, not a lot of second dates, and not a lot of third dates or relationships, because they just kind of keep undermining that. Women, they'll, they'll get further into the relationship, and but they will experience the relationship falling apart on different premises, their fears of abandonment, their constant maybe need for like reassurance to soothe those fears, or the soothe the fear that she's not good enough will sound like will sometimes sound like criticism towards their partner, right? You don't do enough, you're not this enough, you're not that. They're kind of trying to voice their needs, but it comes out with all this fear and anxiety, so it comes out as criticism, and so they'll.. and that's one example, or you know, they maybe are trying to ask for that commitment, and they're, they're picking naturally, and there's a subconscious process for this, and I'm getting too into the weeds, but I'll mention it real quick before we close this out. Is they'll, they'll tend to pick partners who are more on the avoidance side that are like fearful of commitment, and we can talk about why that actually happens is a very subconscious kind of passive process, but when they are ready to commit, which is probably fairly early in the relationship, because they're anxious, they want to lock it down, their partners push away, shut down, withdraw, and they're left going, gosh, I keep dating emotionally avoidant men, is that the biggest complaint that I hear from the anxiously attached women, and so, in summary, it's the core fears of abandonment and a story around your own self-worth of not being good enough.
I was the guy who was experiencing the rejection to infrequent relationships, the lack of depth and connection, that was me for quite a bit of time, and that's the reason I stayed in the relationship that I did find, because I felt like they were so rare, I'd never find one again. I wasn't good enough to find them in the past, and so I got to hold on to her like she's a bucking bronco, and I'm on her back until she calms down, and we can figure this thing out. That was kind of the mindset, but that didn't work out too well.
Alyssa:
Well, you know, you brought up a point as you were talking, and then you said it, it was in my brain for a while as you were talking, but there is difference in gender, and I hate - I hate that's a strong word too - but I hate stereotyping, and I hate generalizing, but with that said, you know, we've been doing a coaching program, we have a coaching program for more than a decade, and we use the fear of the fear of failure, the fear of rejection, and the fear of regret as the three main fears that trigger some amygdala, hysteria, and you know, call it anxious attachment in some ways, right? But what we find is that men, in general, and again, not everybody applies that they won't even admit that they're afraid of rejection or abandonment, for that matter, and so you know, how did you, when you, you know, you get through these three situations, and you're finally left with this, okay, I got to do something in your own head, do you remember, were you feeling like I'm not good enough, people don't like me, or was it through the therapy that it kind of awakened that part of you that said, you know, this is normal, and it's okay, but most guys just hate to say it will push back out, oh, that's not what it is, and it's a social construct, of course.
Trevor Hanson:
Right, right. Well, I will say the anxious attachment pattern will show up more in women than it will in men. Men, they're much more on the avoidance side, and so their fear isn't so much, so much abandonment. Well, it kind of is. It's just a little bit different. So the avoidant, they're afraid of closeness and vulnerability for the sake of being hurt. Usually, their wounding comes from childhood. Is that they didn't have somebody who was like emotionally there, you know? It's like go to your room if you're going to cry. Boys are oftentimes raised to believe that they can only have two feelings: anger and happiness. I can be angry about a situation because that's like aggression, that's a bit family in a way, I guess. I say, I guess, because it feels kind of weird to say that, but it's not wholly true, obviously. And then the other piece is, you know, you can be happy, you can be excited about something, or neutral, I guess, if that's a feeling, if you're going to be sad, if you're going to be crying, crying, there is that social construct, it's like, yeah, you can't really have that, and so oftentimes men will grow up with this fear that's more subconscious rooted of closeness, because people aren't safe to hold them emotionally, and a guy might even hear that phrase, and like, hold me emotionally, like, a little, that sounds, that sounds too feminine. Well, that's just what it is, like, we hold each other in our emotions, it's just how it, how it goes, whether you like the terms or not, and so they will, they will really like the connection in the beginning. The anxiously attached person is going to make them feel really awesome. They're giving them all the things they need, and their fears have not yet come, because the commitment has not yet come. But as soon as commitment increases, he's like, "I'm out of here. So he'll bail. But back to your question around me, is that I wasn't the one who was going to bail, who was afraid of commitment. I wanted it. I wanted a family. I wanted all this stuff. I always knew that I was having a difficult time feeling confident. I always knew that, and it was.. it got to a point where I was very aware of it, to the point it was frustrating. I was so confident in a professional setting, I mean, I, I had data that I put together, like presented to Elon Musk himself in the company, and I was like, yeah, this is great. I, I could walk right up to him if I wanted and feel very confident that I could shake his hand and tell him about what I'm doing for his company and feel great about it. I was the kid who was always starting his own businesses and meeting with people who are much older than me to try to like sell them something or something like that, but when it came to this area of my life, I knew it was there. I didn't have a name for it, and I didn't know that it was really the issue that plagued my relationships until I went to therapy, just to, like, be functional, like I was waking up with nightmares, I was waking up feeling heavy. I never had panic attacks until after that relationship, and it was the relationship that did it to me. It wasn't the job loss, it wasn't the jaw, it wasn't any of that. I could care less about that. I've broken tons of bones in my life, and. Had transitions all the time. I had a good safety net of finances. I was fine. It was the relationship, and I just to function day to day, I needed to go somewhere, and through that process I started to discover, oh, these things, attachment styles, and maybe I've got that, and maybe this is part of the issue, and I, I built the awareness through the process.
Alyssa:
All right, so real quickly, because as we're going to take a break in just a minute and come back with some solutions, can you just describe what attachment, what anxious attachment looks like? How does it manifest in the behaviors of somebody who's anxiously attached?
Trevor Hanson:
Yeah, so an anxiously attached person, and it really, there's kind of a big answer to this, because there's, there's different stages, and how it will show up, but I will say early stages of dating and relationship, you're going to be, and remember, the driver behind it all is fear of abandonment, and I'm not good enough, and so the symptoms of that look like overthinking everything in a relationship, second guessing yourself, not trusting yourself, feeling dependent on the other person to make you feel okay, and at peace, and at ease, like you're waiting for their reassurance, or their words of, you know, affirmation, or even just their text message to let you know, like, oh, okay, they're responding, they're interested in me. In a committed relationship, it's going to look more like you're the partner who kind of chases your partner around the room and won't put the argument to bed. You won't, you have to talk, you have to talk about it. Maybe you are the one who always brings up the challenges. You tend to be a little bit more critical or judgmental during a conversation. You might not recognize it as such. You're like, I'm just telling them what I need, but if you really look at the words, you're more likely pointing out what your two partners are doing wrong instead of asking for what you truly need. So it kind of depends on the relationship stages, but it's, it's marked by pursuit, anxiety, a bit of desperation to maintain connection.
Alyssa:
Interesting, it really interesting, because I mean, I know people, myself, I guess, in the beginning, I think we all have experiences with it, right. All right, so here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a really quick break. I know this is like a flyover on this whole topic, but when we come back, I want to have you share maybe some ways to not only kind of not have to break your jaw, necessarily lose your job, your relationship, to identify what's going on, but what do you do once you go, okay, I got a problem, and it may not be that somebody's not functioning, but they're clearly in a state stage where they don't want to be. So we'll be right back with Trevor. Hang on there.
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Alyssa:
All right, Trevor, edge of my seat. If somebody has anxiety attachment, I want to say anxious attachment, what do you do? How do you know to get some help, and what do you do therapy? First of all, is that the only solution?
Trevor Hanson:
Yeah, these are great questions. So this is always the trickiest part of any podcast for me, because the answer has so many pieces to it, right? So, like, for example, we've got a, we've got a thing we do. It's called the Secure Self Club. It's like four months, and the goal is to help people go from this anxiously attached place to secure, and I might define that briefly, because we haven't really said what it is. But a securely attached person, they know their own worth, they kind of fill up their own emotional cup, they're not dependent on their partner, they're usually going to show up in difficult conversations, a bit more grounded, less anxious in dating. They're kind of letting go of the outcome. Yeah, if they choose me, they choose me. If they don't, they don't. Like, it's not like they're impervious to feelings, like they're going to feel sad if something doesn't go well, but they lack that fear and that anxiety, and they're also comfortable with commitment when it comes and when it happens, and those individuals have much more success in relationships, much, much more success, and you can kind of probably naturally see why and how that plays out.
But the reason I'm saying that is because you know it's a, it's a full four months of answering the question of how do I become secure. And there's very specific activities and processes, and so what I might do is I'm going to zoom out and talk about kind of high level process on what needs to be included in your method, because most of the people that we actually work with, they'll come to us saying, I've been reading books, I've been doing podcasts, I've been going to therapy, I've been doing coaching, and they'll give us the whole list of everything you think you should do, and then when we drill into it, we start to realize there's missing pieces in your process, and I will say one of the core missing pieces that's probably not unique to this issue itself is structure. Too oftentimes people don't really have anybody, even if they are going to coaching or therapy, they'll often get in the how is your week trap, where they just chat about their week, they don't really have actionable steps, a way of moving forward.
So structure is the first thing that I would say people need, and I obviously that's not unique to this issue, people need structure in anything they do. Most likely the other one is emotional experiences, and this is probably the most important piece. If we think about how an attachment style is formed, you weren't just born that way, it's very much a nurture created experience, and there's really good research and data on this, that the way mom and dad primarily show up for you, and it can happen in other relationships too, and the experiences you have with them influence the way you feel about yourself and the way you feel about relationships, aka your attachment style, and I'll give you a very mild example to show that it doesn't have to be like downright abuse or anything like that.
Let's say you've had a growing up, you had a mom who was particularly anxious, not to pick on moms, we're just going to use mom as an example today, she's particularly anxious, and because of that she's not as online emotionally for you, not as responsive. Her face is often furrowed, and you know, concern. She's going busily from one thing to another, you know, giving you what you need, and is generally a good mom. But as even a very small child, you're reliant on things like eye contact, the smiling back, the consistency, the responsiveness that tells you, even as an infant, you are seen, you are noticed, you're going to get fed, life is good, you're safe, you don't have to be worried that me, the primary caretaker, if I'm speaking as mom, that I'm going to be there for you, and if you have the consistency, then you feel secure, if you don't have the consistency, you could feel a bit insecure, like love, connection, safety isn't always there, and that is going to echo into your adulthood. You learn these things before you even know how to form words, and so to think that you can learn it through words, through logic, through like some sort of intellectual process, it's kind of a stretch that's not really going to work very well. You can make some short-term corrections by recognizing patterns and changing behavior, but the core change comes when you give yourself new emotional experiences that counteract the ones you had growing up.
Alyssa:
Yeah, and again, you know, it's unfortunate sometimes this pod is so short, because I would love to dig into all of this more, so maybe we'll do part two another time, but it sounds like you have a wonderful process, a wonderful way to help people overwrite those negative thoughts, those untrue self beliefs, and if they want to learn more, what, how do they reach and find you? Let's just get that down.
Trevor Hanson:
And yeah, of course. So the best way to find us, everything is The Art of Healing by Trevor. It's too long, I hate it, but that's what was available at the time. So, if you go to Instagram, The Art of Healing, yep, The Art of Healing by Trevor, it's a full sentence, you got to remember that. So, theartofhealingbytrevor.com or on Instagram, that's the place, best place to find it. And we got tons of like free resources. I always tell people, have you heard me on a podcast, like just go do something else that's free, like warm this up before you ever decide you even want to work with us. So, we've got like a few seminars and other things you can find in both locations.
Alyssa Dver:
Perfect. I love it. Well, congratulations for getting out of that situation and coming out so strong and sharing it with the world. It's, it's a beautiful story and a beautiful way to to live life. So, thank you so much for it.
Trevor Hanson:
I appreciate it.
Alyssa:
Before we totally wrap up. I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other real confidence episodes can be found on www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence is to give it to others, and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels. You can even give me some confidence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver. Thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
Master editing done by Ben Weinstein, with original music performed and composed by Jeff Mitchell. Real Confidence is a production of American Confidence Institute. All rights reserved.
