EP 104
Welcome fellow confidence crusaders, neuro nerds and success equalizers. This is your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So let's get to it. You.
Alyssa Dver:
Are you deep or wide? You're like what I don't mean physically, I mean your interest level in things and what? More precisely, my husband is an example. He has several hobbies, and he's intellectually interested in a lot of things, but very deep on a couple of them, music in particular, he is an walking encyclopedia. And for those who know him, you know you can literally ask him, like, who played on so and so's record in 1965 and where was it recorded, and all that, I mean, down to that level, not just artists and songs, but literally the production, the history and all that. He reads a ton of books on music all the time. He reads actively, reads blogs, listens to podcasts. He's goes to concerts, of course, and he watches all kinds of shows and documentaries, movies, all on the topic of music. So yeah, he's really deep on that, and he's deep on other things that he is very interested in, like teaching and helping kids to manage and learn better given trauma.
So there are topics that he goes really deep, like reads, everything he can get his hands on, watches, involves himself with and I've always respected that. I think it's something really special, because for me, I'm the opposite. I'm wide, not just in the hips, but, you know, some people might look at this as being superficial. I'm interested in a lot of things, and as a result, I like to dabble a little bit, read and do all different kinds of things, art and music, of course, and anything that has to do with food I'm interested in. But you know, I get a little deeper than the average bear on brain science, on confidence, for sure, and absolutely, would consider myself probably the world's expert in ERGs, employee resource groups. But it's not the same as with Jeff. In other words, he's, like, actively out there, going and learning about something really, really deep. So he becomes, you know, really, really knowledgeable, not just so he can use it in work or business context, but because that's the way he is. And I, on the other hand, like I said, I'm wider. I like to learn about a lot of different things.
So is is one better than the other? Well, of course, it depends. You know, if it is something to do with your work, being an expert, I would assume can only help if you are an academic. Of course, if you're going for your masters or Ph.D. in something, you really have to be deep. But you know what? If you're having conversations with strangers, you go to a party, or you're at a restaurant or something, and, you know, like I, I can talk to anybody about anything, really, and part of it is that I don't consider my myself an expert in any of those things. Jeff, on the other hand, you know, he gets a little frustrated with people if they don't want to talk about something that he's interested in, or they pretend to be an expert in something that he is. It becomes really, you know, he gets fidgety and a little like, let's go. Let's go. So, you know, again, it depends if one is better than the other. Depends on who you are in the context.
Now, I will say this that I also noticed that somebody like Jeff, and I know a lot of people like Jeff, I'm just using him as my example here. He built a lot of his confidence from the knowledge and expertise that he has in those subjects. And so when somebody not just pretends to be an expert, but challenges Jeff's expertise, he gets really pissy, really pissy, defensive, aggressive, you know, cave person behavior, kind of thing. You know, don't dare challenge my ego, because he's very proud of his expertise, and I can understand it. But he is so deep in that topic, whatever it is, again, music or something like that, that unless you're at his level, you really can't have a conversation with him. And you know, it was a surprise to find one person recently, it's taken, you know, 30 plus years of marriage to find somebody that could really have a conversation about music with Jeff, that he felt knew as much and knew different things than he did, and that was really amazing. So, yeah, gets a little, let's say, intolerant me.
You know, yeah, you know, if somebody challenges me about ERGs, or somebody challenges me about the science of confidence, I yeah, I will get defensive, because that is my, my expertise. That's my where I've spent so many years and so many hours studying and becoming really knowledgeable about those areas. But I'm also really interested in hearing what other people have to say and think, and so to some extent, I'm a lot less agitated when somebody kind of pretends to be an expert or makes a comment that would seem that they don't respect my expertise. Again, bit of context, a bit of in who you are. And for me, I think that if I have an opportunity to learn more about something, I will definitely grab it. Jeff will only really be excited if it's an area that he's interested in, right? So again, maybe some subtle difference there, that he's open minded and he's willing to learn new things, for sure, but a lot more willing if it's something that already is aligned with his knowledge base.
And I think that that's also very telling about how expertise can feed your confidence, but it can also make you a little insecure about being totally open minded or totally kind of willing to not be the smartest person in the room. So I'm wondering if you're sitting there going, yeah, maybe you are someone who's deep or wide, but you can start to see this almost as a difference in how people perceive, taking in more information, participating in teams. And, you know, I could argue, from a brain science perspective, that because it's repetitious learning, as if you're somebody who's deep in particular repetition learning. So like you're interested in music, and you're reading more and more and more and more and more about music. It actually reinforces things in your brain, not only about the topic and your knowledge about it, but it really hard wires, you know, the neural pathways, so that knowledge is really forefront.
We probably all joke about having a senior moment. Somebody asks you the name of an actor or musician or what was that place we went to? Right? And you struggle, you struggle, you struggle. I certainly do on just about every question these days. But Jeff, you ask him about a particular musician. It's in his prefrontal because it's been hardwired there after all these years of being deep in that topic. So, you know, again, better again, depending on the context, but yeah, certainly has its benefits. So I'm going to take a quick break, because I'm going to come back with two profound questions for you. One is the question of, can you be both? Can you be wide and deep? And we're going to peel that apart for a minute. And then, you know, as usual, what can we do better to respect somebody who's not like us? So if you're wide, how do you deal with somebody that's deep? And when you're deep, how do you deal with somebody who's wide? Alright, we'll be right back.
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Alyssa Dver:
All right, here we go. So my first question I threw at you before the break was, can you be both? Can you be both wide and deep? Yeah, absolutely. I think we all are to some extent, you know, we're not just, I only study these topics. I'm only want to know about these things. No, that's not the case. But certainly the behaviors that follow in terms of being really an expert in certain things versus being kind of a generalist, you know, are you a a primary physician kind of thing, or are you a specialist? You want to know everything and anything about the GI system, right? So, you know, you could be a little bit of both, for sure. But I think at the end of the day, we all. Say we're little bit more one than the other, but there probably are more people like my son, Ben, out there, that I would call kind of ambi brained, right? They are really, truly both. And Ben is a great example. Again, I'm using my own family, but I'm sure you have people in your world that are like this, where super deep on certain things. And Ben, you know, ask him a question about cooking or food or beverages, brewing, he will tell you all the details on everything. And again, remembers all the the words and the chemicals, structures and anything to do with that. But other things outside of that, he also is really knowledgeable.
Now I would say that perhaps that's a reflection of his age. He's 21 at the time I'm recording this. It's 2024 and Ben has grown up not only with kind of this plethora of internet information, but the ability to kind of Google whatever they want. So every now and then, he's just out there googling stuff. He's listening to podcasts. He's listening he's reading blogs of all different kinds of things. He's picking up things. But he may not have the same amount of clutter in his brain that I had, you know, having to learn Latin and calculus and things in school that my career don't make a make a difference. So, you know, a lot of junk in my brain. Perhaps, I don't know, can make that hypothesis. But maybe more importantly, Ben is just curious, and he's very open minded, and he's very voracious when it comes to learning anything and everything he's got.
He practices active listening very well. And he just is one of these people that, you know, you always surprises us with these things that he knows be great and trivial pursuit to play with him, as long as it wasn't too old school. But you know, he has that ability to kind of be both wide and deep. And I would say, you know, as an example, he loves music. He's extraordinarily knowledge about music, but he's not like Jeff. He's not reading every book and blog and movie and all that he does a fair amount. So again, he's very knowledgeable, but he's not like as deep as Jeff, not as aggressively digging as Jeff is he has the same fascination with other things, but again, he's very deep on the things that he's interested in, and little bit more superficially interested, like I am on the things that are just good to know, right? So he is, I would say, ambi brained.
But whether we call somebody deep or wide, cheap or easy, introvert, extrovert. You know, we can throw labels all day long, and I really don't like labels. I think they are very limiting. They limit our beliefs about ourselves. They kind of box us into being people that maybe we weren't meant to be, and more importantly, that other people. We treat them in a way that they shouldn't be treated. It's not fair. But let's for a minute assume that you are somebody that is really a wide thinker, like I am, like a wide learner, and subsequently are in conversation with somebody who's deep. Is there a really positive, productive way for the two of you to kind of meet in the middle. And of course, there is, you know, one thing is, respect their expertise, don't challenge it, and certainly ask questions, you know, ask them to to help teach you more about their subject. And I think that builds a beautiful foundation for both of you. You're curious, and they love to share their or show off, anyway, their expertise. So that's really good. Don't be surprised, though, if that person gets frustrated with you because they don't have an obligation to teach you, right? So they may do it for a little bit, but in after a while, be like, You know what? Go, go learn yourself, right?
So respect their expertise, ask them questions, admit that you're not an expert, but you're really fascinated, and you want to learn, and you see them as an expert, and, you know, butter their ego a little bit, if you will. That's a really good way to approach it. And, you know, again, I'm not saying that you should take ownership to manage them, but I think in this conversation, you get the benefit of really getting some of their knowledge and expertise in a way that otherwise they wouldn't be bothered with you. They wouldn't be bothering with you. Now, if you flip the conversation and you're somebody who's really deep and you're dealing with somebody who's superficial, yeah, you're probably going to get a little frustrated with this person because they're not nearly as committed or passionate about something that you are. But by the same token, I think in many cases, it gives you the opportunity to kind of learn from the other person and be like, you know, like, what, what are the what are things that you're interested in? And, you know, maybe, just maybe, there's some things out there that you don't know that could be really fascinating. So try not to get annoyed for one. One try to take a deep breath and realize that not everybody is as deep thinker learner as you are. And you know, make your decision if you're going to have a conversation with that person, great, be patient, but at the same time, respect them and their knowledge for things that you don't know. And if you decide to you really don't want to be bothered with that person because you don't think that it's really worth your time. Your time, I'm going to give you permission to say nice, to meet you and go find somebody else that you want to talk to. But needless to say, when you recognize the differences, sometimes I think this just makes for a smarter, more strategic way of communicating and certainly having respect for the other person and respecting yourself.
I hope that was helpful. Thanks for tuning in before we totally wrap up. I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other real confidence episodes can be found on www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence is to give it to others, and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels. You can even give me some confidence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So for now. This is Alyssa Dver. Thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
Master editing done by Ben Weinstein with original music performed and composed by Jeff Mitchell. Real Confidence is a production of American Confidence Institute. All Rights Reserved.
