EP 63: Real Confidence- Connecting with Confidence with Special Guest Michelle Tillis Lederman

October 15, 2023

I was taught to schmooze. You know what I mean, even if you don’t speak Yiddish: I can walk into any room, anywhere and strike up a conversation with anyone about anything.

Sometimes those conversations turn out to be meaningful and other times it’s just a bunch of polite chit chat or small talk.

But it wasn’t until I spoke to this week’s guest, Michelle Tillis Lederman, that it really hit me that not only are not all conversations created equal, but in most of these cases I was conversing versus connecting.

What’s the difference exactly?

Connecting is more than an exchange of information, it’s learning about another person and allowing them to learn about you. It’s uncovering shared interests, values, experiences, causes, passions – all the things that make people want to build relationships with one another.

Let’s be clear: there is nothing WRONG with having casual conversations. But somewhere between shooting the breeze and baring our souls lies the opportunity to be interested and interesting in a way that’s satisfying that what we think of as networking rarely is.

The good news is, finding that sweet spot is neither difficult nor mysterious and Michelle shares her top tips for connecting that won't leave you feeling fake, phony or gross.

Takeaways from this episode include:

How to make yourself comfortable first, so others are comfortable around you
Why making a conversation all about them is the same as making it all about you
What the best questions for connecting – not conversing – have in common
The importance of knowing how you want to follow up before you finish that first conversation; and
How to gracefully let someone know when you don’t want to connect as much as they do

Michelle Tillis Lederman is an accomplished speaker, trainer, coach, and author of four books including The Connector’s Advantage, The11 Laws of Likability, Heroes Get Hired and Nail The Interview – Land The Job. You can learn more about Michelle and her work at michelletillislederman.com.

Episode Transcript

EP: 63- Connecting with Confidence with Special Guest Michelle Tillis Lederman

Welcome fellow confidence, crusaders, neuro nerds and success equalizers. This is your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.

Alyssa Dver:
Connecting with confidence sounds so easy when you say it. And I know it's not, but we are going to make it not only easy, but fun, because I've got an expert, and somebody that I've known for a long time that I just respect so much, Michelle Tillis Lederman, is with us today. Michelle, thank you for taking the time to talk to me and all our listeners.

Michelle Lederman:
So excited to be here, Alyssa. Oh, cool. All right. So, let's get into it. And, you know, I'm never embarrassed anymore to ask the dumb question.

Alyssa Dver:
So, let's just start with the obvious one on my head anyway, which is connecting What do you mean?

Michelle Lederman:
I love that, you know, because networking is not the same thing. And when I talk about connecting, I talk about really just learning about somebody else. And understanding what you might have in common- shared interests, shared values, shared experiences, shared causes, shared passions, your dreams, all that stuff. Because that makes you want to build relationships.

Alyssa Dver:
So, we're gonna dig into all kinds of paths because you just laid a whole bunch that I appreciate that in person, virtual, one shot, long term, all the above.

Michelle Lederman:
I was gonna say yes, until you said, one shot. And that's when I say no, because what we're thinking about, we talked about connecting is, is over time. So yes, to virtual yes to in person, yes to long term. Because otherwise, you're not actually connecting, you are having an encounter, or you're having a conversation. But connecting is moving from conversation to connection to relationship to long term to extension.

Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, you know, it was, I had this like, epiphany. And I say, epiphany wasn't that smart. But it was one of those moments. Like, I can't believe I never thought about this before. I was taught to schmooze. And I And for those of you who don't speak Yiddish, don't feel bad about it. Like, walk into a party and pick a conversation with anyone. And when I started thinking and reading your content, it made me realize that it is completely different. That connection is not just having a casual small talk conversation. True?

Michelle Lederman:
I would agree with that. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with good schmooze, right? So, she uses great, it puts people at ease it has you have a conversation. And a schmooze can lead to connection. But the schmooze is often surface, right?

Alyssa Dver:
Ya knows, when you said surface, I'm like, yeah, it is almost superficial, I would say.

Michelle Lederman:
Yes, it can be, it doesn't have to be. And so, what I'll say is, it's fine to have those conversations. And I don't want you to be like, tell me your deepest, darkest fears on your first conversation. But there's definitely something in between where we can show our interests in somebody else, and our willingness to share and disclose some things about ourselves that just give a little bit more and make us a little bit more interested. Right and interesting, around what could possibly be here between us. I like to think of it as a dance.

Alyssa Dver:
Dance. Well, you know, as you are throwing out some of those adjectives and verbs. I was thinking to myself, again, this kind of casual conversation, networking, getting into a place where you don't know anyone and making small talk conversation. There's a very, very one-sided benefit, right? Like, I'm going in there to find people that interest me, but you just said something that I think is really at the heart of what I study. And of course, this issue of brain science about this need to belong. And it's not just about you feeling comfortable in the room, it's actually I think, what you're saying is having a mutuality with somebody and that's the difference maybe between schmoozing for the sake of, you know, passing the time finding somebody I like versus making a deeper connection.

Michelle Lederman:
I love what you just said. And I know you told me to save all my tips for the end, but I gotta give you one right now. Because what you just said was as we enter these places, and we're going in, we're not necessarily going in with who do I find interesting. You're going to environments with a host mindset. If you want to connect with confidence, go into these environments as a host, the host is it from coming from a place of confidence because it's their goal, their desire to make everyone else feel welcome and comfortable. And when you have that mindset, it's really difficult not to feel confident. Yeah, I love it.

Alyssa Dver:
I love it. I have a feeling because I've been asked this a lot, you probably too, which is why should I be so gracious? Right? Why do I need to be the host? And I don't mean me, Alyssa. I mean, anytime that you are walking into a room, are you going to meet somebody? And you are, are like, oh, I'm going to schmooze? Or I'm going to connect? What are the benefits? Like of actually taking that host role? What do you see changes when people get into that mindset, have that approach? I'm sure there's emotional, and I'm sure there's even physical differences that you see.

Michelle Lederman:
When you have that host mindset, you absolutely kind of stand a little taller, your shoulders a little back, you walk with purpose, you approach people with intention. And when you feel that you have purpose and intention, you're more comfortable, you're more relaxed, and you help set that emotional tone for the other person. You know, even for extroverts, and I am one of them, those are so overwhelming, it's draining. Like, I even feel like oh, my god, I can't do more. But if I'm thinking like, okay, I'm now here to help other people connect and to make them feel comfortable. I will benefit. You know, it’s kind of all rubs off. It's like peripherally like because you become that safe place. When someone's like, oh, I need a break. I'm just gonna go over and talk to Michelle, because I don't have to, like, work that hard with her.

Alyssa Dver:
It's true. I say confidence is contagious. And so, it's connecting, I think it's absolutely mirror neurons and all these other neurological reasons, we can't explain it. But the truth of the matter is, the energy you're going to give to somebody is going to become is going to reflect back to you and that's positive. Let's turn it upside down now, like when people don't connect, when there is clearly a lack of connection, you see or hear about people having emotional or physical signs and impact.

Michelle Lederman:
So, when somebody is not connecting, you know, we have to think about what do we think the reason is, and I want to tell you a really quick story. I was once giving a talk, and I'm talking about good because you can because you want to with that expectation, right? That whole graciousness thing you were talking about earlier. And somebody in the front row was kind of like, I'm tired of giving him where's mine. I mean, like, literally, like she didn't even realize how loud that came out of her mouth. She was mortified. And I took the moment, and I was like thinking to myself, oh, my God, well, why do I think that's happening? And going in my head? And I turned to her and I said, so tell me what have you asked for? And she just looks at me like, I haven't. So Okay, now I understand. Because having a host mindset doesn't mean it's all about the other person. Right? And being gracious and interested. And all of those things that we can talk about. It's not just about that. I also said a little self-disclosure, some sharing, giving people the opportunity to feel helpful towards you. So, everyone wants to feel valued and valuable. And we can do that. So, I'm not saying make it all about them. Know what you want and be willing to ask for it.

Alyssa Dver:
I love it. So why is it so uncomfortable for a lot of people to be that vulnerable? What is it that you've done this for years? You're a coach, you're extraordinary at what you do and then you above all, we've seen so many people who would rather poke their own eyes out, then learn how to connect and content concept. I know you get them over the hump. So, what is it that stopping them? What is the real fear there?

Michelle Lederman:
So, fear, I think fear you’re right one of the issues and also it's you know, just different personalities. Some, you know, the introverted and personality find it a little more draining, but he also thinks that they have a misguided at times perception of what it needs to look like. And it does not need to look like somebody schmoozing and working in the room, as you know, you might have in the mind's eye, when I talk about connecting, I'm just talking about putting yourself in a position with one other individual to get to know them. And that can be virtual, and that could be on the phone and that can be you know, outside of the crowd. It doesn't have to look a certain way. And I think when we can embrace that, it takes a lot of the pressure off. So, I want you to think about knowing your format and understanding the strengths that you bring to the table and leverage them. We all bring different things.

Alyssa Dver:
Yeah. That's true. It's true. I remember having this conversation and a different flavor, I guess, with my young kids, and anyone who's over the age of 30 on here probably is gonna go aha, you know, like, there is this clear difference in the way that they connect. We can do many podcasts on that whole topic. But you know, the conversation I have with my own children who are now, grownups/adults, was, you know, ask as many questions, every sense that comes out of your mouth and always be about you. Right. And I know you're gonna give tips later. But I think there's a lot of social culture online and otherwise, that people feel that they have to talk about themselves, you know, in those connections, and I, it sounds like from what you're saying, it is really not about you. It's about the connection.

Michelle Lederman:
Yeah. Oh, my God yes, because when I talk about relationship networking, I talked about a couple shifts. And you know, from the short term to the long term from about work to about anything. And the third one is it's not about you. But it's also it's not about them, because that's just it’s about me in reverse. It is about the connection about the relationship. And as I said earlier, the dance. So yes, ask questions, but make sure you're not interrogating. And that's kind of falling. That's why I say you want to intersperse with some information about you throw it in, but don't take it over. And think about that as a dance of, you know, I take a move, you take a move, and so there is this exchange,

Alyssa Dver:
I love it. And I'm gonna go back and talk to my children about dancing better. And I, for those of you who are listening, I'm actually benefitting by seeing Michelle, she just did a little bit of a dance. So, we're gonna dance together for a little break, give our sponsors some love. And then we're gonna come back and tell you really specifically how to do the dance. So, stick with us.

This podcast was sponsored by the American Confidence Institute. ACI uses basic brain science to teach you not what, but how to think with more confidence. ACI is endorsed by top universities and business experts. And it is accredited by the Society for Human Resource Management, and the International Coaching Federation. Learn more about ACI as uniquely empowering keynotes, workshops, online training, and coaching certification at www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com.

Alyssa Dver:
I hope you're enjoying this as much as I personally am being with Michelle Tillis Lederman, one of my favorite people on the planet. And we are going to dance together now deeply into how to do this connection stuff for real. So, Michelle, give me a tip to three tips on if somebody's like, I want to do this better. What do they do now?

Michelle Lederman:
Okay, so summarizing what we already have, we are going to have a host mindset, right? So how can I make other people who feel comfortable to we're going to be curious and ask questions that we actually don't know the answer to, and questions that we're willing to answer ourselves.

Alyssa Dver
Oh, okay, stop there. Before you go on. Then I'm interested in, and I want I'm willing to give myself can you give me an example of that?

Michelle Lederman:
So, I always like don't ask about the sick cat if you don't care about the Sick Cat, right? If you want to talk football, talk football, like I don't care what the topic is. But pick a topic in a question that you actually want to answer to. And I'll share with you that I was taking my son to a summer program. And he was like, I never make any friends at these. I hate these. He's very introverted, very shy. And so, we actually created a list of questions that he did ask people, and he goes, but mom, you told me to actually only ask something I'm interested in. He's like, I don't care about that answer. I'm like, okay, let's take it off your list.

Alyssa Dver:
All right. So, host mindset. Ask questions that you actually want to know the answers to and you're willing to give as well?

Michelle Lederman:
Yes. And the third one, which we hadn't talked about yet is make it almost like you're a detective in these conversations. And you're searching for a couple of pieces of evidence. One is, you know, what do we have in common? One might be how can I help this person? How can I add value? What might they be needing? What introduction, what information? What invitation? What can I do to make them feel valued and valuable? And three, what would be our next point of contact? Like seek the follow up in that first conversation. Because as I said, when we said is it impersonal virtual one shot Long Shot No, like not to the one shot. So, part of it. The most important thing I can tell you as a as a tactic is figuring out your follow up before you finish the first conversation.

Alyssa Dver
What would be a legit follow up for somebody that maybe you meet at a cocktail party or something that's not necessarily you're going to run into them? or at work or you know that you don't have something that would be an easy follow up what, what would be a good one.

So, there's obviously the easiest one is like, connect to them on LinkedIn, or whatever social media platform that you might be on. But think about the conversation you have. So, for example, I was just on a boat in the Galapagos on vacation with a bunch of other people. And at dinner one night, I learned that the guy who's sitting across from me does DE&I work. And I was fascinated by it. We have already emailed since. But the first email was, hey, did you get that picture of that sea lion or? And so, it started with what were what was our point of connection? Let's exchange pictures, and then transition it into hey, here's my work, email. Let's set up some time in the fall to talk about more what you do. You know, and so find something from the conversation, that might be the follow up. And my favorite three things are information invitations and introductions.

Alyssa Dver:
Oh, love that. Do that again. Information, right?

Michelle Lederman:
Is there something that we talked about? You're going on a trip; you need a plumber? You know, whatever it might be? Is there information that I might be able to help you have? Even if it's just me googling it for you. Invitations? Are there events that I know of, even if I'm not going to them, that I can invite you to write and bring it to your attention? Or introductions? Who do you want to connect with that I might know, these are three really easy ways to see how you can add value and find your follow up.

Alyssa Dver:
So, I'm going to close with real, not positive. I always like to be positive when I can. But this one's a negative. What if you like are connecting with somebody and you go to yourself, I don't like that person, and they keep sending you invitation, what's the proper way to D connect disconnect.

Michelle Lederman:
So I don't believe burning bridges. But I might say, you know, I really appreciate your desire to send me this, I really don't have time for these types of articles. But you know, we can keep in touch, and you know, on LinkedIn or on other ways, you know, and appreciate the intention, but let them know that it is not actually a value add.

Alyssa Dver:
So interesting, because I'm thinking to myself, I have a lot of people who are always trying to get to me and sometimes I'm just like, I don't have time or you know, they're just in a different orbit or whatever. So, you know, part of the confidence conversation has to be the courage and the confidence to say to somebody, I really enjoyed that trip with you in the Galapagos, but I'm really not interested in these other things fair.

Michelle Lederman:
So, boundaries, right? One of the mindsets of a connector is conscientiousness. Know what you're willing to say yes to and what you're willing to say no to and know how to say no. And that's, there's a whole chapter in the book on how to say no.

Alyssa Dver:
I love it. I love it. Maybe another podcast in our future together. But for now, I mean, we just scratched the surface on all of this so much fun being with you always. The best way for people to find you is what?

Michelle Lederman:
Best places my website MichelleTillislederman.com. From there, you can find all the stuff my Instagram, my LinkedIn, my YouTube, my blog, all the free gifts I give away that are in the show notes. All the good stuff that's the hub.

Alyssa Dver:
So grateful. So so grateful and connecting with you is like I kind of feel empowered as the connector with confidence today like I've never had before. So, thank you so much.

Michelle Lederman:
Thanks for having me on.

Alyssa Dver:
Before we totally wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other real confidence episodes can be found on www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence is to give it to others and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels. You can even give me some competence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver. Thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.

EP 63: Real Confidence- Connecting with Confidence with Special Guest Michelle Tillis Lederman

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