EP 51- Confident Writing with special guest Erin Lebacqz
Welcome fellow confidence crusaders, neuro-nerds and success equalizers, this is your podcast, Real Confidence. I’m your host, Alyssa Dver, and I’ll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe that confidence is everyone’s fundamental right and choice. So, let’s get to it.
Alyssa Dver:
Welcome all, particularly if any of you are out there that are current writers, or wannabe writers, I got a treat for you. I got Erin Lebacqz in the house. She has been teaching writing in businesses and schools in the US and Asia for over 25 years. And she is the author of a book that is going to be so interesting to learn today. It's called High Value Writing Real Strategies for Real World Writing. And it's a book based on her classroom experience. Amen, sister, I at least said it right. Welcome to the show, Erin.
Erin Lebacqz:
Well, thanks so much, Alyssa. Hi, everybody, and thanks for having me.
Alyssa Dver:
So, I'm going to trip on this at least once. I apologize, you and the audience, real world writing? What is that?
Erin Lebacqz:
Right. I know, we don't hear it phrased that way too often, do we. But I think the reason I talk about writing in that way, is because I came out of teaching in colleges and universities, and most of my career was teaching, college writing or academic writing. And then when I switched to teaching in the workplace, I've noticed whoa, big disconnect between what we learned in school and what we need to do at work. And so, my students would ask, oh, this is so cool. We're learning how to be clear and concise. It's different than what I did in school, how can I practice? And I said, well, there aren't really that many ways of practicing, because most of the books on writing are for students. So, I thought, well, I'll write one. I'll kind of put together what we talked about in class, which is, how to show up as your real self, how to connect with an actual human being on the other side, and how to use intentional excuse me strategies to ensure mutual understanding, connection, empathy, relationship building, as well, as you know, just following the rules and whatnot.
Alyssa Dver:
That's a lot to think about, let alone say, right, I, so many people, I think, are sitting there going, I can barely follow the rules of grammar. You know you're asking me to do all these other things. But, you know, I think at the core of it, is this insecurity about writing? And I wonder, in your experience, what do you think is the cause?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, that's a great insight, it's very much people are very insecure about writing, we're all nervous about our writing, because we all feel for one thing, like we could be judged through our writing. And so, it's scary putting yourself out there, for sure. And then I think if we layer on to that, the way we truly have been judged for writing in our childhood, and as we got older and as a young adult, and so because of the fact that we talked about writing, possibly every day, for months at a time in school, we only talked about it that one way where our task as a writer in school was to turn something in to show what you know, and get judged. And so that's kind of how we remember writing, oh, it's about showing what I know, so that I can prove that I'm worthy. Someone will judge me, but then when we get out of school, and we're writing in the real world, we don't have another mind frame another framework to think about it, we're still kind of thinking, ooh, I'm gonna get judged. It's all about correctness. Let me write in a really long manner that sounds like school. So, I sound sophisticated. And then we realize, well, people in the real world don't really want to read that kind of writing. You know, we don't want to read academic writing. We want to read more targeted writing. But it becomes difficult for people to, I think, take that leap, and build that confidence in writing in today's in what we need at work because they've spent so long being told how to do it at school. And we often haven't talked about writing since school, so there's no way to really change our mind frame about it.
Alyssa Dver:
Very true. Now, something happened literally yesterday. And knowing we were going to talk today, I was so excited because there was an email exchange with a client that I've been working with. And I could definitely tell in her change in tone in the last few weeks. I mean, granted I’m the confidence chick, I'm always looking for stuff like this. There was something going on. And she was very aggressive in her emails very, very terse. And so, I kind of called her on. I was like, what's going on? Is there something that I did or said that I could be aware, or correct? Or, you know, but clearly there's something and of course, she came back. She's like, no, no, you're reading into my emails. And so funny enough, I was like, yeah, I am. And that judgment that you just mentioned, I think we do that, maybe differently than our teachers did. But we are always looking for maybe, I think we're always looking for cues, what's going on with that person? What's their intention? I don't know, or is that just me? Or do you think people will actually read into those kinds of things in business communication?
Erin Lebacqz:
I sure do. I think your example is spot on. I think most of us go through something like that each week, right? Where we think, oh, is this person mad at me? Or oh, is this person not interested in what I'm saying? And so that's what we have to keep in mind as writers is that you're right, we're being kind of seen through our writing. Now, our writing represents us as a human being, especially in today's remote world. And when we're not sure, when there's a disconnect, you know, doing exactly what you did is perfect. Just asking, hey, I don't want to be interpreting wrong, you know, is there something going on? But that tone aspect of our writing now, kind of represents what we're like to people? And so that's something that the book takes on is kind of like, well, if that's the case, how can we choose our words carefully? In a way that's fairly easy, but that makes sure that we remember, writing is not just informational it's relational. And so as you develop thoughts about that person based on their writing, that's what we're all doing. I mean, you and I emailed each other before we ever met. And then when we got here, I felt comfortable, because all of your emails had built my trust. That's what writing does. It's a relationship builder as well, in your experience.
Alyssa Dver:
So, when you were talking about these emails, that may trigger us to have a little insecurity moment ourselves, but we're seeing on the page and electronic or otherwise, that there's some sign, there's something that's going on with the writer, that is either saying they're not in a confident place, they're angry, they're frustrated, whatever it might be. What are there some telltale signs? I have my own opinion, but I like the experts. What do you think?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, well, I think it's, that's a really great question where we can look at someone's writing and decide, you know, we can sometimes even think, ooh, what's their personality? Like, right? But we can think, what's their confidence in writing, like, I would say, by, do they use language like long leadings that puts off their meaning as if they're not sure. Like, it has come to our attention that we are in need of contacting you relating to, you know, and it goes on and on and on before we get to the real point. And then maybe we could say, instead of I'm writing to explain that your profile needs to be updated, we could just say, please update your profile. And I think the second version gets to that action, sooner we hear a verb real soon, that tends to sound more confident, I'm ready to do some action, here's my verb. But the prior example, I'm writing to it has come to our attention that those sorts of what I call slow lead, and they delay meaning. And I think that makes the writer sound like they're not quite as sure if their meaning or how to express it.
Alyssa Dver
Yeah, you know, in our courses, we teach a lot about communication, including a little bit of writing just a smidgen. But verbal or writing, we talk about those lead ins. And I remember when I was writing my very first book, but now I'm on my eighth book. So, this was a long time ago. And my publisher, who was an older gentleman, was scolding me saying stop using word phrases like I think you should, it might be right, all those kind of fluffy intros that not only kind of delayed the meeting, like you said, but clearly, were saying, I'm not the expert. And that changed my world. And when I read people who do that now, it is such a screamer to me. So, you know, that's a really good example. Are there any other things that you notice in people's writing that kind of flags you as going oh, that are writing in an insecure spot?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, I think when people are insecure about their writing, and I think we could all at least me, you know, be guilty of this. Our brains have been picking up information all day long, right. And one of the things our brains have picked up over time is that good writing supposedly sounds fancy, big vocab, bureaucratic sounding, and doesn't really sound like an authentic person. But that's a myth, right? But it gets into our heads that we should sound bureaucratic and use a fancy vocab and not really represent as ourselves but as this sort of robot of how we think official writing sounds. I think that can make someone sound less confident when they're not writing as themselves. But they're more. And we don't do it for any negative reason, we're just trying to do a good job. But we try to write in a way that sounds bureaucratic and fancy. And it ends up sounding overly formal, stilted, often fluffy, and not concise, which I think is just another flag. If there's anywhere, you know, like, I am interested in learning your opinion about, we could just say, please tell me any of those sort of hedging and putting off. And then to your point to, like you said, when we say I think, blah, blah, blah, let's just say let's blah, blah, blah. And we could really take that even a little more deeply, possibly through a gender lens, where what I've seen in classes, of course, is that women have been more conditioned to write in a way that sounds less sure, just as we've been conditioned to act less sure. But we don't need to do that, right, we can take these insights and think, Well, I'm gonna get my verb out there sooner, I'm gonna sound like I have action I want to take
Alyssa Dver:
you bring up a something that's close to my heart, which is some not just the gender difference, but maybe, you know, even diversity, angles of things that people show up, visually, physically, you know, condensed over in their shoulder language, and so forth. So do you see any other differences in confidence and writing amongst ages or gender, not just genders, but races or any other kind of diversity lines?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, I think whoever has been stereotyped as less quote successful in academics, has possibly been raised to feel like they're not good at writing. So it's like stereotype threat in general, any of us who are in groups that are that there's myths and stereotypes that we're not as good at something, it gets into our heads a little bit. And so people who've either been raised where they don't feel like their education was as good as other people's, or they didn't have books at home, or they didn't go to a fancy college, which actually is not needed at all to write clearly at work. But we can get it into our heads that we're not good enough. And that's simply not true. Because there is no one correct way to write. There's only a way that's right for each situation. So there is there's no possibility that some of us are doing it right. And everyone else is wrong, because it's always circumstantial. But I think people who've been sort of marginalized by academic and financial communities could also think, well, maybe I'm not that good at this skill. But what I see in the classroom is quite the opposite, that people who are accustomed to speaking in a real-world setting are able to be clearer and have their focus on what the reader wants more than what they themselves the writer wants. And that's really the key to strong writing. So it doesn't matter where your degree is from or if you have a degree at all. It's about your mindset, your ability to logic, it out your ability to empathize with your reader.
Alyssa Dver:
I love that. You said that. Because when I teach pitch, which is a form of communication, of course, often it is the people who are not native English speakers that are better because they're not filling all those gaps with waste words. So, I really do appreciate what you said. And thank you for letting people know that you're not being judged because you don't know some big fancy words. In fact, sometimes when I get those big, fancy words from people, I'm like, okay, knock it off. I have a vocabulary like nobody's business, but you're just showing off.
Erin Lebacqz:
Kind of a Turn off. Yeah. When people show up in that way, it feels a little inauthentic.
Alyssa Dver
Alright, so here's what I'd like to do. We're going to take a very quick sponsor break. But when we come back, we've been talking about some of the signs and issues about not writing confidently. So obviously, I want you to tell us, not just how to write more confidently, but how to get somebody who feels like they don't have good they don't have confidence as a writer. How do we get over that hump, so we're going to be back in just a few.
This podcast was sponsored by the American Confidence Institute. ACI trains smart, hardworking people how to use basic brain science to more effectively coach themselves and others. ACI is endorsed by top universities, the Strategic HR Management Association and International Coaching Federation. Learn more about ACI as uniquely empowering keynotes workshops, e classes, and coaching certification at www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com.
Alyssa Dver:
This is right up my alley, this podcast because as now I guess I can call myself a writer but even after like three or four books, and articles and some of the top pubs I like people would call me a writer and I'd be like, I'm not a writer. I gotta ask, you know, like, we're gonna break this into two parts. One is like, what about those people and I'd be very, very wealthy woman, if I had $1, every time somebody came up to me and said that they want to write a book, and they couldn't, you know, I'd love to write a book, but they could never do. And I'm like, why not? Like the only reason I wrote a book is nobody told me I couldn’t, right? So let's start on how to be more confident as a writer, and then we'll talk about specific things in our writing that will come across this more confidently. So somebody who is like, Oh, I could never write I'm not a confident writer, I can't do it. What did you What are your best tips words of wisdom?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, great. So yeah, we'll start with some kind of internal ways that we can think, right? It's just like when we try to do self-development and growth in other ways, we look a lot at our mindset. Like, when people go through a therapy program or something, we're often looking at our mindset, right. So a lot of writing confidence has to do with I think two aspects of our mindsets. One that we need to get rid of, and one that we need to develop or cultivate. The one that we want to try to leave behind is that most of us have a lot of myths about good writing rattling around in our heads.
We think that good writing means the same thing as academic writing. Or it means the same thing as writing that famous people do. And inventors and novelists, we don't realize that writing is actually for everybody. And like we talked about earlier, we associate that school judgment with it. So I would just encourage us to kind of notice, okay, well, when I grew up, it was presented to me that to do a good job, I had to write this long thing with a lot of big words and get points on it, I found it scary, I hated doing it. So, I must not be good at writing. Well, but that incident has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that maybe now someone wants to rent an apartment, and they've got to email the landlord, that is a completely different type of writing. So, whether someone wants to write a book, or just be effective in their daily writing, or even get a promotion at work, there's no possible way that you can't write because writing is actually about logic. It's not about the things that we got red penned on in the past.
So, our first thing we need to do is try our best to just lose those myths. Any beliefs about yourself that you developed in school are probably not applicable at this point. And so, what we can do instead is cultivate the mindset of our own expertise. And any of us are actually the expert in a writing situation. And we'll talk in a little bit about, you know, what this might look like strategy wise, but if you're writing for work, most of the people that I talk to write all day long, they email people, they try to look good to their boss and everything. And they tell me, Erin, I'm so scared when I write to my boss. And I say, well, but the truth is, who knows more than you about what you are writing right now, you know your boss, you know what you're trying to do? That's all we ever need. What and who's my reader? And what is my goal? If you know those two things, you can answer any writing question you might have. Because the length of your writing the tone, the level of vocabulary, those can all be decided, by your own analysis of who's going to read it, and what is it you're trying to accomplish. So, there's no way that that you don't know because if you're the one who has to write the email, you truly know more about the situation than anyone else. And since there's no right way to write, it's always situational. You're the expert in that situation. So, we often talk about how to start understanding our readers. And getting to that point of again, it's not what gave us a good grade in school. So let those myths go. It's understanding another person at this point. And if I write my email in this way, it's going to sound condescending, or it's going to sound aggressive, or it's going to sound helpful. And we can all make those choices by just analyzing the situations that we're in and trying our best to kind of free ourselves of any self-beliefs that were negative about writing.
Alyssa Dver:
I'm wondering, as we start to bridge into the conversation about things we can do in our writing, how do you feel about all these tools now that are judging whether our writing is friendly or condescending or otherwise? Do you think they are useful? And should we rely on them or, you know, your point about really knowing your reader and your intent? Before you put anything on the page, I think is really the key, right?
Erin Lebacqz:
I do. Yeah, I think that those tools can be helpful, but I wouldn't want to treat them as gospel because if I'm writing to you, for example, Alyssa and then the AI gives me a suggestion like, ooh, this phrase would sound really friendly. But what if it's a little formal, and now we've had a nice chat, and I would feel kind of rude being overly formal with you. And so, I would want to check against my own understanding again of the situation. You any writer knows more about the situation than AI knows. So, the AI can give you some great suggestions, but you're really the expert on whether that's a good a good example to take and use.
Alyssa Dver
Let's really hit hard now on things that we can do. And you know, you brought up a lot of, in and around this authenticity and being, you know, true to your reader true to yourself. And so, some rules, some ways that we can be confident, at the same time being appropriate because dropping an F bomb in an email, probably not the best idea, but what can we do to really kind of be confident, authentic, true, and subsequently effective communicators?
Right? Yeah. And a colleague of mine, when I taught university did receive an email from a student with an F bomb in it, explaining why they weren't late for class because their car was F bombed up. And I have to say, you know, it created kind of a new opinion of that student for her. So, you're right, we want to be authentic, but we want to be authentic in a way that's also applicable to the situation. And to the relationship we have with that person. Again, back to you know, I wouldn't want to be overly formal with you, Alyssa, at this point, because we've already met and that could sound a little cold. He shouldn't have done that with his teacher, right? So yes, we want to sound like a human. But we also want to, you know, filter it through what's right for the situation.
And so, I think a lot of what we want to do to sound like ourselves, is to get our true point. And our true ask out there a little more easily. Again, without those slow lead ins, on a sentence level, I always encourage people to take any old ugly sentence that you've written, look in your sentence, figure out who's doing something and put them in the front. So, we could say like, it was decided in the leadership committee meeting that five new courses will be added to the catalog. Well, who did it? You know, I don't know, did who in the meeting decided it? I can't tell from the sentence. We want to say who did something in the beginning because that sounds confident. And it sounds like you're giving real information. And it even sounds like a person because it's a little more akin to how we talk. Because we do say who and what earlier. So, we might be like leadership decided to add new courses. We can enroll in new courses. And so, I always tell students start with your who and what, if you like grammar, that's your subject and your verb. But it doesn't matter if someone's a grammar person or not, we can all figure out well, who do I want to be taking action in my sentence, pick that person or group of people out and put them in the front. And it does sound more confident because you've gotten right to your point, you've talked about real people, and you've written in a way that's more relevant, more related to how we speak. So that's the main thing is to get that out early. And then in terms of maybe a holistic piece, or maybe you have an email of a few paragraphs or a document, not burying the lead getting right to the point quickly and getting the call to action out there clearly and concisely. If you do have to ask your reader to do something, use a strong command verb, like submit, edit, join, or something like that. And if you feel rude, put a please in the front, please submit your edits by Thursday. Please provide me with any extra thoughts by Thursday, please let me know by Thursday, it still sounds nice, but it's confident because it's got that command verb up there sooner. So, who and what in the beginning, a real call to action, don't be afraid to ask other people to do things. If you ever feel rude asking someone to do something, you know, what would be ruder? Leaving them not knowing what to do. So, it's okay to be clear about your own ask as well.
Alyssa Dver:
I love that. I love that. Yes. By not telling somebody what you want, right? It's very fundamental to what we teach at ACI is this whole notion of you know, if you don't tell people what your values are, what's important to you? How the heck are they going to respect it? So, I love that, Erin, I don't say this to everyone, because I tend to write more books than I read. But I'm dying to read yours cover to cover. I know other people here are going to be as well. How do they find you? How do they find the book? And they want to reach you tell them how to do that?
Erin Lebacqz:
Yeah, I'd love to chat with folks. The book is on Amazon. And it’s Barnes and Noble, the big sellers in general. It's short, it includes examples of actual sentences. So, it's not just theory. So yeah, check that out if you'd like folks. And then another type of free learning that I offer is my YouTube channel, which is just called High Value Writing. And it's got videos, images, surveys, all kinds of stuff for you to go through and just fix up whatever area of writing you wanted to work on including confidence. And you can always find me through my website at highvaluewriting.com.
Alyssa Dver
Thank you so much for sharing these incredibly valuable tips. And for all you out there, keep writing, start writing and do it with confidence. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Erin Lebacqz:
Thanks so much, Alyssa. Thanks, everybody.
Alyssa Dver:
Before we totally wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other real confidence episodes can be found on the website, www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again, that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels. You can even give me some confidence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
Master editing done by Ben Weinstein with original music written and performed by Jeff Mitchell. Real Confidence is a production of American Confidence Institute. All rights reserved.
