Ep 39 We Love You, Now Please Leave.
If you're smart and work hard, but just aren't where or who you want to be, welcome to your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.
Alyssa Dver:
A topic that is going to be not only fantastically saucy and insightful, but you know, Maureen Cidzik is one of my favorite people on the planet. She happens to be part of our marketing universe in a way that I think the universe every day. So, we riff on this topic a lot. And I finally said, we got to put this in a podcast. So that's what we're gonna do, Maureen, I'm so happy you're here.
Maureen Cidzik:
Oh, thanks for having me. Well, I know we have this conversation a lot. And it seems with everything. If people are paying attention to LinkedIn, I'm going to spill the beans, right, layoffs are happening left and right. And we talk a lot about that, because we've been through it ourselves. And lots of people are coming to us and the competence work that you do for advice?
Alyssa Dver:
Well, you know, there is a lot of things in life that suck our confidence, but I think this is probably one of the top three right is getting laid off. And, you know, you just mentioned we it's happened to us, you know, I've been laid off. I don't know, I'm losing count a couple times, let's say and sometimes the layoff is couched with, you know, we no longer need that function. But in some cases, quite transparently. It hasn't been that it's just been, you know, a riff with the owner or whatever might be right. So, you've had your own scars, right?
Maureen Cidzik:
Oh, multiple, multiple. And, you know, they say you never forget your first love. And I also think you never forget your first layoff. At least I don't, which isn't to say that you, you know, don't remember your second or third as much as the first. I mean, they all hurt. But that first one, the first time you're going through it, I think is particularly triggering. And I got my first pink slip 22 years ago. 22 years ago, I was working for a .com startup, it was during the .com, boom. We had been working crazy hours, we had a successful IPO and then that bubble burst. And one day, our beloved, and he was beloved CEO called us into an all hands to talk us through the current situation and how they were going to be restructuring. And what I remember is, every person in that room was handed a personalized envelope and inside the envelope was the name of the conference room that you were to go to learn your fate. So, it didn't matter if you were staying or going. Everybody was moving in a particular direction. And my fate was leaving the company and it sucked.
I loved that company. I love the job. I love the people I worked with. And even though I was in my late 20s, when I went there, it was a career change. So, then I was like, oh shit. Maybe I'm not as good at coding, because I was doing web programming, maybe I'm not as good at coding as I thought I was. And the truth was, my skills were fine. I was just too expensive in relation to other junior members of the team to be retained. But it took me a good long time before I actually believed that was the truth and it wasn't about something I did or didn't do.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, you know, I think there's a lot of nuggets in everything that you just said. And in some cases, it is that questionable? Am I good enough? You know, people certainly visit that. But even if you know concretely that you did a good job. And you know, we we've been talking on and off about some of the people that we know who are champions in their space, that are still getting a hack job, because the company for whatever reason, decides that that, you know, let's get rid of marketing, right? Like, let's get rid of this. It's the slices and you're like, wait a minute, it like musical chairs. I just, you know, I just missed the chair, but nobody told me the music was even on right. So, the emotion around it is really, really jarring to say the least. You just said leaves a permanent scar and the second, third and fourth don't necessarily get easier. But maybe at that point, we're kind of like maybe this is just the way the world is what do you think why do you think that first one is so deep?
Maureen Cidzik:
Well, I mean, it feels personal, and it's an experience you haven't had before. So, it's also going to trigger your brain to look at things in a very different way, a way that maybe you weren't used to, you know, different- you can apply to a bunch of schools or apply to jobs and not get those jobs. But once you're brought in somewhere, and then you're asked to leave, you know, I think, from my own personal viewpoint, there was a time, five-six generations ago that if you were cast out of your tribe, it was literally the difference between life and death.
Alyssa Dver:
Well, and that's, that's really kind of the key in there, your cast out. So, you, you have these connections, like you said, personal relationships, your ego, of course, all these things that contribute to your identity and sense of belonging. And yeah, getting cast out, we know that's going to trip up the amygdala in all kinds of wackadoodle ways. But I think at the heart of it is this, I don't belong, they don't want me. And yet the rational part of our brains, you know, we're both businesswomen know that layoffs happen often for generic, sometimes legitimate, not always business reasons that have nothing to do with who you are.
Maureen Cidzik:
That's true, right? So, I think it feels personal when it happens. And people love to say, it's not personal, it's business. And sometimes that's true, right? I worked for a company once who at the end of every fiscal year, based on department metrics, just sliced off the bottom 10% of performers. So, it didn't, it didn't matter what department you're in, if you were in HR, and you weren't making your talent targets, your retention targets, whatever it was top 10%. So, it was a very objective experience. And so, I did not get laid off from that particular company. I don't know what the experience for people who did was like, but it felt very objective. But at the same time, if you talk to enough people in positions of leadership, I'll think you find that the decisions they're charged with making about who stays and who goes are highly subjective. And they're not without personal bias. Add to that. Organizations today are so invested in making employees feel like they're part of something. Right. So, whether it's the corporate mission and impact, we're changing the world together, the culture of teamwork, whatever that is, one day, it's being communicated that you're a valued part of that. And the next day, no, here's your separation package, and the phone number of your HR business partner, right.
So, when you get voted off the island, it's a shock to your nervous system. We talked about what goes on with the amygdala and all the wackadoodle stuff, right? And your brain has built in negativity bias. So, it's going to look for what you did wrong, right? And then you're going to want to find the problem, fix it and ensure that you're never in that position again, because it also right, it triggers our security and our survival instincts. And in some cases, those are very real, like, how are we going to pay the mortgage next month? That's true for a lot of people. And once we go down that path of self-scrutiny, it is really hard to stop. And it's harder still to see your own skills, talents and abilities. And I will say, especially if you were ousted from an environment where micromanagement was happening, you know, at your level and your position or with your boss, because you're already being conditioned to not trust yourself. So that's like the double whammy, I think.
Alyssa Dver:
Interesting perspective. Yeah, I love that. You know, I don't know what we're gonna call this episode yet, but you know, we love you, now get out. Right? That is a paradox. So, and that's a really good point. And certainly, the fact that if somebody is looking over your shoulder, yeah, it's already building up to that we don't trust you. We don't like you. And then, you know, here's the slip, have a nice day. Does it matter? Do you think doesn't matter if you get a nice severance package, if they handle it better and nicely and humanly? Or does it just necessarily put us into that? Oh, crap moment regardless?
Maureen Cidzik:
I think you have that oh, crap moment. Regardless, I think what the benefit of a nice severance package does is it gives you the time and space to actually feel how terrible the experience is, instead of having to rush immediately into action, right? In our culture, and I just mean, like Western, sociological culture, we like to action our way out of everything. And if we skip that step of feeling how awful it is, all of that stuff is unprocessed. Right. And I, from my perspective, that energy sort of leaks into everything that we're trying to create for the next step in our career.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, it is absolutely 100% a grieving cycle. I spoke to somebody the other day who was really shocked at her layoff and I don't blame her she was considered a rockstar and then some and rewarded all along for her Rockstar, right so getting laid off one day out of the blue was and when I literally talked to her on screen on Zoom, it was deer in headlights, she couldn't form a sentence. She really couldn't answer the simple questions of how I can help you what, what would be helpful now? And I think you have to give yourself that time and space to grieve to realize the suckiness of it all. And then also, to learn from it right to reconcile, oh, hey, it sucked. Maybe I could have done these things better. But in reality, these are things I'm going to look for next time assigned to the micromanager, for example. And I want to get into what can we do once we've been laid off? To kind of take that and deal with it in a productive way? I want to do that after our sponsor break. But I have one more question before we get there. Which is Do you think anyone is really immune to it? Do you think anyone kind of escapes the layoff potential? And then once they're laid off grief, or do you think it's everyone, men, women and any personality type? Is there anyone that has a little bit more of a booster shot immunity to it?
Maureen Cidzik:
Meaning like, their job is safe, and they won't go through the experience? Or what's going to happen?
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, I mean, a little bit of both. Have you ever found somebody that like, just was like I was laid off, whatever.
Maureen Cidzik:
Ah, I have been that person at one point in my life. Probably my third one. And I say that because the entire division that I worked for inside a very large multinational conglomerate, our severance package was like, a year long, right? So, I had I was like, okay, whatever. Like, I didn't have an immediate needs that I needed to fill. But no, I think everyone sort of takes a step back and questions. Was I locating my identity in the wrong place in my life, right? Was I building my identity on something that could shift? Was I naive to think that this couldn't happen to me? And yeah, I would say, I would say the bigger the severance package, the more likely you're going to see, you know, like a shrug of the shoulders and ok I can figure out what is next.
Alyssa Dver:
And if it's happened to you before, right, like you said, you're kind of like, okay, this is, it is what it is. But I think the point of the matter is, I don't really think anyone's immune to being laid off. I don't think anyone's new to feeling shitty after a layoff. So, let's take this well-deserved sponsor break. When we come back, let's talk about what anyone can do to deal with it more productively when it happens, or if it's happening to them right now. Okay, we'll be right back.
This podcast was sponsored by the American Confidence Institute. ACI trains smart, hardworking people how to use basic brain science to more effectively coach themselves and others. ACI is endorsed by top universities, the Strategic HR Management Association and International Coaching Federation. Learn more about ACI’s uniquely empowering keynotes, workshops, eclasses, and coaching certification at www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com.
Alyssa Dver:
All right. So, if you are listening, and you've been recently laid off, we're sending you not only Virtual hugs, but we're gonna give you some real tips to deal with it. If you've never been laid off before. These are good to have handy for the future. Because inevitably, I think everybody in their life with few exceptions, do they experience this. And if you've done it in the past, hopefully they'll make it'll make you giggle a little bit thinking that shoot, there are ways to actually deal with this. In a, I won't say positive, but productive way. So, Maureen, you get laid off, you're like, hey, we don't want you here's the door, have a nice day severance or no severance, what, what's the first thing you would coach somebody to do to deal with it?
Maureen Cidzik:
I've actually been coaching people on this. So, in addition to our work together, I do have a life coaching practice on the side, and it's happening a lot. And these people are coming out of this experience really feeling destroyed. So aside from what we already talked about before the break, which is giving yourself the time and space to like, let it suck and actually feel those feelings, we know that our brains are triggered. And so, my number one productive tip for getting through the early stages or mid stages after a layoff is to give your brain a more interesting problem to solve. Because it already knows how to look for all the things that are wrong and wants to be that it wants to fix. But if you can give your brain a more interesting problem to solve, that doesn't make its negativity bias go away. But it sort of it gives it enough of a distraction that doesn't take over your life.
Alyssa Dver:
Like what kind of an interesting problem?
Maureen Cidzik:
So, if it has a more interesting problem to solve, say, I would go back to the identity piece right is the more interesting problem to solve is what is my identity? Where are all the places, I get my identity from? Where's are those places? says that my I see my identity more secure than others, right? You could solve for identity. You could say, well, I've been in this industry for, you know, however many years, and I do have all of these other interests you could solve for what would it take to shift a career path.
Alyssa Dver:
And all the above are a little scary. Let's admit that right there.
Maureen Cidzik:
They're scary, terrifying about.
Alyssa Dver:
And, you know, working with a coach, as you know, can be tremendously helpful to really think about, alright, take this moment, and let's pivot, let's do something a little bit different learn from this as a signal. And I love that. What about self-reflection? Should somebody go? Let me go back and talk to other people? Let me see what I did wrong. Is that anytime? Do you recommend that to people at all?
Maureen Cidzik:
I'm not a fan of the post-mortem because my brain is typically doing that on its own. Anyway, in the background, right? It's looking for what's wrong? What's wrong with me? Where did I fall short? Where could I be better, I find it more helpful and more productive, to have those conversations with people I worked for in the past where the experiences were positive and successful. So, I would reach out to a former boss, or a former peer or even someone that maybe I had managed and who reported to me and talk through what I just been through what that experience was like, and get their perspective on it, because we've had it and then that also reinforces to my brain. Oh, hey, look, these are all the successful, positive professional experiences I've had.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, no, I like that. And, you know, of course, you can even ask them, would you mind writing me a testimonial, which would help me in my next job search, but also feed my confidence collection? So, I can remind myself that not all my work experiences have ended in this painful situation, right? So, I think that, how much time should somebody give themselves to agree to go through that let it suck period.
Maureen Cidzik:
That an ode to a nod to Disney there, yeah, let it suck. For myself, I find like a three day full on pity party is a good measure of time. And the reason I give it, you know, three days, 72 hours, is what I tell myself is alright, if we're going to feel terrible if we're going to have this pity party, and we're going all in, right, it's 110% on the pity party, and you would be surprised how bored you get of your pity party, and usually less than 72 hours, that doesn't mean you're going to wake up on day four, and feel fantastic. But that tendency to keep going back and reliving conversations, meetings experiences, or trying to figure out what went wrong, is less tempting. Right? The hooks that your brain has in that are going to start to release.
Alyssa Dver:
So, three days, two days, whatever somebody's own meter is I like to say at that point on an hour 73 Whatever your Yeah, yeah, the party's over. What do you advise people to do? Because you know, saying, I'm going to do this. And then I think they need something next to say focus on so what should that next step be after the pity party is done,
Maureen Cidzik:
I would recommend to go have some fun.
Alyssa Dver
Like?
Maureen Cidzik:
Anything that interests them. Any hobby that they haven't had time for, which I know sounds like such generic advice. And I hate generic advice, right? But I don't think you end the pity party and then go straight into a hardcore job searching and networking frenzy, because that's just going to tax your nervous system even more, and your nervous system hasn't fully recovered from this experience of being laid off. And then I would also say, let's just call bullshit on the whole looking for a new job as a full time job because no one can spend eight hours and be healthy at their desk every day, doing this kind of outreach. So, finding that thing that is fun for you, whether you're going to the park, playing with your kids, hanging out with your dog, knitting, cooking, baking, bread, whatever it is something that can balance, that tendency to just go into action mode. So, you can kind of calm your whole system across the board because you want to generate as many good feeling hormones and brain chemicals as you can to counteract all of those stress cycles that are still going through your system.
Alyssa Dver:
That's great. Now we are at our time limit. We could talk about this forever. We probably will talk about this forever. But if you're listening two things, I want you to take away one is that Maureen and I have had a whole books worth probably of layoff experience ourselves and people we talk to every day. It's happening everywhere. So, if you're in this situation, you are not only not alone, but you will survive. And we're here you can't see our faces. But we are here telling you straight up, you will survive, you'll be fine. And in many cases, probably in most cases, you'll actually be grateful because it's going to take you on your next chapter, that if you put your mind to it can be magnificent. So please take the experience mire in the suck for a bit and then come out and do something productive in a way that this becomes not so much an endpoint but just part of the journey. Maureen, the second thing I want people to know is you are one of the most spectacular coaches and I should have introduced you in the beginning. You're not only an ACI certified coach, but you do all kinds of different coaching. Somebody who wants to get Maureen-ness, which is a gift, how do they do that? How do they reach you if they're interested?
Maureen Cidzik:
In coaching, they can find me at MuddyLotuscoaching.com. So that's a riff off of no mud, no lotus, which is my way of saying that it's a kinder way of saying no pain, no gain. That mud is the suck right that the lotus needs to go through in order to come into a full blossom. So, they can find me at MuddyLotusCoaching.com. I am at Muddy.Lotus.Coaching on Instagram. And if you look at the show notes, you will see the spelling of my short but tricky last name. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.
Alyssa Dver:
That is beautiful. Thank you so much. I thank her every time we meet for her presence in my life. I thank you all who are listening for being here with us today and hope to hear more great stories online. Please contribute if you've been through a layoff or if you have topics you'd like to hear. We would love to hear from you. Thank you, talk to you soon.
So, before we completely wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other episodes can be found on the website www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again, that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others and you can do it so easily just by liking and sharing this episode on your favorite social media channels. You can even give me some confidence fuel by sending in any comments about the topics I've covered, or ones you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
This podcast was produced by Mindful Media. All rights reserved by Alyssa Dver and the American confidence Institute. Music written and performed by Jeff Weinstein.
