Ep 35 How to know if you’re toxic
If you're smart and work hard, but just aren't where or who you want to be, welcome to your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dver. And I'll be sharing a bit of brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.
Alyssa Dver:
I'm very picky about my guests who come on the podcast, I want really great people. And I want people who say something that's really relevant not just to the confidence story, but to the listeners that I know are really using this content to transform their own lives. So, it's, I take it very seriously. So, if I invite somebody for a second time, it's because they are really, really friggin special. Now, Aidan Miller was on my podcast talking about toxic bosses, and she dropped the hint of how do you know if you're toxic? And I said to her, oh, my gosh, it's another podcast. So, guess what? She's back. And we are lucky times two?
Aidan Miller:
Well, I'm lucky times two, and some Melissa, thank you so much for having me back!
Alyssa Dver
I'm so grateful. So, for those of you who didn't catch the first podcast, Aidan is a Canadian, but she is, and I should say, but and she is a wonderful consultant, a teacher, I learned so much from her, she's a fellow neuro nerd. And we're gonna provide all the credentials in the show notes, so you can reach out to her because you're gonna want to, and today's topic is taken off from that last one, as I said, because we see toxic behavior in organizations constantly, like this is not something that's unusual. And that hurts my heart. And I guess before we talk about the details of how do you know, you're one if you are one, let's start with why is it so prevalent? How does it get so promoted? Like, what the hell like, why is it? Why do we allow it to even happen? And subsequently, then we become it.
Aidan Miller:
Amazing, that's quite a powerful place to start, isn't it? Alyssa? How do we get this way? What's going on? So, I think there's a multitude of factors that kind of explain why toxicity is not only allowed to be perpetuated, but often promoted. The first of course, being if you're someone who is toxic, and you don't know it, but you're also someone who knows how to play the political game, you know, also how to please the ones that are evaluating your performance. So, in terms of higher echelons of hierarchies, not realizing the impact of the toxic behavior on those below or beneath that ignorance also breeds and everything is fine mentality. So, when you think about these toxic managers, or recognize that shit doesn't roll up hill, it rolls downhill. And oftentimes, the decision makers in the organization really are out of touch with what it's creating at the ground level.
The second piece, and I love talking about this with folks, because my emerging leaders have this, have this passion for this reason. Leaders generally are capable workers, they get promoted into leadership positions based on things that are easy to measure, right Alyssa, outputs, ideas, deliverables, revenue metrics, and then all sudden, they're in this position where all of those skills required for effective leadership and motivation of others are a lot more nuanced and harder to measure. So, unless and until organizations start emphasizing how we do the work being as important as what we get done, and having a way to measure things like connection, warmth, trust, engagement and enrichment. We have a long way to go.
Alyssa Dver:
Oh, gosh, it's an understatement. You know, there was some research at Gallup saying 8 out of 10 managers are not even equipped, let alone capable of doing those things. So, you state very beautifully that is behavior that is often even reinforced and rewarded. So, you know, the big question, we talked in the last pod about what it looks like from somebody else and how it makes you feel. But if you're the toxic one, do you think people even know that they're acting that way? Is it a conscious behavior?
Aidan Miller:
Yeah, so in many times, I think people are just enacting their own values or personality and unless they're challenged in the impact those are having, they might not actually know it. They might not get up in the morning and say to themselves, I really want to go be toxic today, especially when you think about one of the competencies of emotional intelligence Alyssa, which fortunately, is becoming more popular, more endorsed as a must have in leadership, one of those competencies is empathy, which isn't just perspective taking, it's also reading the room. And it is a skill to tune in and recognize the emotional impact you're having. But if you don't develop it, or you don't have it naturally, you have to be focused, and you have to pay attention, and you have to grow it like a muscle. And what we know is that people don't have it, they have no idea of the impact they're having, and therefore the answer to your question is largely, unfortunately, not.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, you know, I find this a lot. And I'm curious if you do, too, sometimes, it's the bullies that actually appreciate you. They don't immediately appreciate it, but they do come back and say, thank you for telling me. Right, and I call people out a lot in my life. And the older I get, you know, it's not just my husband, literally doctors and neuroscientists, and I'll be like, knock it off. Right? Now, maybe I can get away with it because I am a confidence expert and I'm a little older. Whatever the reason, but I think in some ways, they it proves to me that they have no idea they're doing it. And they appreciate having that kind of additional input. You know, do people just kind of go through life being toxic, and nobody says anything you think?
Aidan Miller:
Sometimes, or sometimes the folks that are offended by those particular behaviors don't speak up. Hmm. Because again, not every behavior is as offensive to everybody equally. Now, that said, I've had similar experiences, Alyssa, where this real kind of emphasize the belief that I have that toxicity is far less often about bad intent, as about unawareness. So, when they're telling you, thank you, what they're actually saying is, I didn't have this data before. And if I had this data, because I know as a leader my job is to motivate others and be resonant as Daniel Goleman forefather of emotional intelligence, say, they said, this is flying in the face of my own competence. And everyone speaks that language, don't they? So, when they say thank you, I've had bosses say the same thing, some of my worst experiences with one manager in particular, he came to me one day, closed the door and he says, I want you to know, this isn't the only tough relationship I have. What can I be doing differently? And it was set in such earnest. It was quite a quite a profound moment, I think in my life and his Yeah, no,
Alyssa Dver:
it sounds it and good. Good for that manager for being so aware and open growth minded, right? That's beautiful. Not everybody by any means is like that. Signs. Signs that you might be a toxic boss or a toxic person, what are signs that we can look at? Nobody has the balls to tell us. What should we be looking for? Or what are the tells?
Aidan Miller:
You think the first thing you can do is pay attention. We often say David Rock talks about it, he wrote a book called your brain at work, our attention is becoming our most limited resource. And it's true that the less we pay attention, the more automatic and on autopilot we are, which is when all of those toxic behaviors actually get to go on chat. Pay attention to not only what you're saying and how that might be perceived. But using that tuning in skill, we do know there's an energetic quality to emotional response. You can see people shut down if you're paying attention. You can hear people do not speak up. If you're paying attention. You can see people's body movement change often if you're paying attention. And that's why the first thing you can and should do for yourself is observe in your lived moments if you have enough capacity to do so, how you're influencing the room.
Alyssa Dver:
Alright, so give specific examples. Somebody's what does it look like? When somebody is experienced toxicity? You're saying their body movements change? Like, for example, what can I look for?
Aidan Miller:
Yeah, someone might kind of crumple downward. We know that a threat response specially for certain threat responses is someone smalls themselves actually physically, they might also look down, they might avoid eye contact with you. They might start fidgeting, they might distract themselves. In a room full of people, it's even more obvious, because people will all be manifesting these at the same time. They might also start to have side conversations, they might even lean back in their chair, not in terms of a relaxed stance, but a checked out and disengaged one. You might also notice some eye signals to other people across the table. When I've coached the leaders to pay attention to the signs. They can so much more quickly say I can tell what I've said isn't resonating helped me understand. And in that moment, they've taken a toxic moment and turn it into a trust building one only because they saw how people were responding.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, I'm well, and here we are, we're talking on Zoom, I can see you obviously, the listeners can because it's an audio only pod. And you know, when you say read the room, zoom or whatever internet base system you're using gives you this wonderful power, quite honestly, to really pay attention. But I find, I wonder if you do to the people almost do the opposite, they'll do anything to avoid looking at the screen?
Aidan Miller:
Absolutely, it has become tricky in this virtual space, hasn't it, we have to start almost looking for very different cues of engagement and disengagement.
Alyssa Dver:
Right. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to focus on the camera where that person is, especially if it's a group, and then the interpretation from the other people are, they're not listening to me, it's not, it's your pictures on the left hand side of my screen, right? It I tell people about the power of the pen. And I don't know if you've ever read this and myself, it's a simple tip. It's a way of saying to people, I'm holding a pen, and I show it to you in the camera. So that you know that I'm actually listening to you because at least you perceive that I'm writing down what you said, right. And that, you know, call it empathy or emotional intelligence, but giving people cues to let them know that what they're saying is being heard. That's a big deal for like, especially in this online world. So, I think a lot of times we misread or don't read, like you say other people's reactions, and we have to tune into that.
Aidan Miller:
Absolutely. And again, perception is as important as reality in the eyes of those who are leading. So, these are the moments where actually sometimes over communication is a good thing. Here's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Here's why my camera is off. Here's why you might notice some distraction from me, because I don't want to be toxic. But what I want to explain is I've got a lot of things going on right now. And I do find that's tricky for leaders who are still battling against vulnerability and trying to kind of shed a little bit of that curtain around being iron and stoic and compartmentalize. I'm finding more and more importantly, it's important for leaders to lean in if they expect others to do the same.
Alyssa Dver:
I love it. So that's gonna give us a perfect segue. We're gonna do quick sponsor break, but I really want to come back and spend a chunk of our podcast time together. If you are toxic, or you suspect you might be one of the specific things you can do other than just tuning into those around you. So, we'll be right back. And hopefully you'll tune back into us then.
This podcast was sponsored by IT Cosmetics. A makeup and skincare company committed to helping all women do their confident best. IT Cosmetics campaign, Confidence at Work provides free brain science based resources, including educational articles and videos developed together with the American Confidence Institute. IT Cosmetics also partners with Kiva, an international nonprofit that directly empowers underserved female entrepreneurs. Please learn more at https://www.itcosmetics.com/confidence-at-work.html.
Alyssa Dver:
All right, well, we're back. And, again, I can't thank you enough Aidan, for sharing your brilliance with us today. And I know you're gonna give some really specific helpful tips. If somebody suspects that they are maybe toxic, a beyond kind of the tip that you said before reading the room keeping present some of the really specific things you can do to and to find out a way to validate and be to deal with it. What do you do?
Aidan Miller:
Love that question. And the first thing I would love to say is, if you even suspect you might be toxic, congratulations, because already, you're better equipped than others. The moment you start to shine a mirror to yourself, and the moment you start to care about whether you are or aren't. That's the first step because what that shows is a genuine self-awareness and a genuine interest in leading others well, so first, great, it's almost like acceptance is always the first step. If you spot it, you got it, then you're paying attention.
The second piece is and you kind of alluded to it when you said validate, I'm all about data, right? I have a psych background. I'm all about measurements. So, get data, whether that be through tuning in, yes, but more overt ways of gathering data. Ask folks, right? Get almost that 360 feedback, even if it's informal, right? Ask people who know you ask people who report to you in a genuine and earnest way, explaining that of course, hey, this leadership gig is kind of hard. I think sometimes I make choices that more so reflect what I think is best but might not be working for you. Do you have any feedback for me genuinely. I had a good leader who always asked is there more of is there something you need more of or less of from me today? And it was done in earnest, and it was done genuinely because to your point earlier, Alyssa, sometimes they're just unaware. And when they ask, that's the first step
Alyssa Dver:
right. I do want to also give people permission, because I hear this a lot is just because you get feedback, doesn't even have to agree with it, acknowledge it. But you don't have to agree with it. But getting the feedback, absolutely critical. And I think in some ways, it gives you that opportunity to really be like, what is it I want to do differently? And what is it that I really just want to reconstruct the perception, like you said before, right?
Aidan Miller:
Nailed it. Feedback is not about ultimate truth. It's about hearing what a little glimpse of someone's lived experiences. And if you could cater to that perception even slightly to elevate your effective decidedly as a leader, I would want to know how I can do that. That's a really good point
Alyssa Dver:
it is. And you know, I think there's a corollary to that, too, and you use the word leader, you know, I think it depends on your perspective of leadership. And if it's, if it's servant, or not, and all that. But if you want to be a great leader, and get the most out of your people, part of this game, I'll even go say do it is to really understand those nuances. And so again, you don't have to agree you don't have to say, o, they're right. But listening, hearing, considering, please get feedback, think about it, and did make conscious about what you want to accept or not. So, thank you for that tip. Keep going. I love it.
Aidan Miller:
And I love just the word consciousness. Right, Alyssa, if everyone was just more conscious of what they were doing, I think toxicity would shrink relative to that. So, and then the final one is, you know, I also come from a background where assessments are used quite often to shine light on areas that are just a part of ourselves, but we start to open up how they might be perceived by others. So, there's better assessments out there than worse. But so much of those coaching and consulting businesses do well, because they use validated scientific assessment and American Confidence Institute is also one of those organizations, that tells people maybe some of what they already know, but also exposes some ways in which their strengths at times could also be working against them if they don't moderate for some of those toxic downsides. So, I always believe in the value of data, how you get it, how often and to your point, Alyssa, how consciously you decide to respond to that data, ultimately, up to you. But at least you have a more fulsome picture of your leadership, your style, and how your values are translating in the workplace. I love it.
Alyssa Dver:
I love it. And you know, I think there is a thread here of it isn't about whether the behavior is good or bad. It's about how it's landing with the people that you need as much as they need you. Say, and as a leader, if I'm looking at and going well, they have to do what I'm telling them because that's, that's the job, I have some bad news for you. That's not the job. That's not even what anybody's paying you to do. What people are paying you to do is optimize the performance of the people you're leading. And if they are perceiving you as toxic for whatever reason, true or false. Hello, that's, that's the missing link right there is just find out how to close that gap. And you're going to be a better leader, a better person. And I think I know a lot of people don't realize that till it's too late.
Aidan Miller:
Agree. Thank you. So well said, truthfully.
Alyssa Dver
Look, I'm just riffing off of what you said. So, you know, what can I tell you? You know, I can only be as brilliant as the lights that are around me. So, thank you.
Aidan Miller:
Love. And folks, it's always a lovin.
Alyssa Dver
Hey, I got I got one more question for you. Which is, can you if you've been a toxic boss in the past, and all of a sudden you have this revelation, you have this epiphany that like, oh, man, I was terrible. And I'm gonna do better going forward. Is there a way to reconcile? Should you reconcile with people that maybe in the past really think that you're a jackass?
Aidan Miller:
Yeah. Can you imagine how powerful that would be? If you actually reach back out to those folks and say, listen, I'm realizing not because I meant to, and not because I went through this life wanting to be toxic, but I'm recognizing the impact my behaviors have had imagine. So, what I would say is, I think that's always possible. And I think sometimes it's often necessary. But it's hard to do the right thing sometimes. And so, if you do want to reconcile if you want to own it, first of all, yeah, genuine ownership, not selling yourself out. Not making excuses, but to just say, I'm realizing the impact without me knowing that my behaviors have had in the past, genuine apology. We could go on; we could do a podcast about what a good apology sounds like but genuine apology. Right. No excuses, right. And then finally, genuine action, because it's only in the change of behavior that that apology resonates. And I think through some of the tactics, we've talked about, Alyssa, we know that change is hard, but it's through the change that people believe you.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, as you were explaining that there was a trigger and I apologize it had not I need to do with the question. But a couple of years ago, there were two boyfriends that I had when I was in high school. And they haunted me because it was my fault. I did some stupid things that I really regretted. And I decided to find them. You know, we can do that in the modern Facebook age and sent them both letters, handwritten letters. And, you know, I was very, very conscious of saying, I realized I'm doing this to clear my conscience, but if there was, if there's any lingering hurt, I just want you to know that, in hindsight, I realized that I was a jerk, and I'm sorry. And one of them was absolutely grateful for that. And the other one was actually very upset. And so, you know, it's part of why I probably asked you that question in a subconscious way is that when you do go back for that forgiveness, yeah, it may not be all roses, but at the same time, I think it is still the right thing to do. And I do think people eventually come around and realize that you're trying to do the right thing, like you said, in earnest. So, I do want to encourage people to consider it, but also be very honest with themselves that it can't be just for your own sake and your own release. Right.
Aidan Miller:
Yeah, you know, what's so good that you mentioned, because even before that, I think you have to clarify your own intentions and reasons for doing it. And if it's to get validation back, manage those expectations. But you're right, ultimately, it's the right thing to do. So, I think that's a beautiful example.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah. And then and then do it and then act and lift level up, right? Don't just think up, level up, do it.
Aidan Miller:
That's right.
Alyssa Dver:
Aiden, we're gonna continue to talk forever, as friends forever. And I might even have to have you on for a third fourth, fifth podcast. But for now, all I can say is thank you for sharing the brilliance again, thank you for being part of this world and being part of the solution. Because if we can get rid of some toxicity in ourselves a little note of the people, boy, that's a good day.
Aidan Miller:
Thank you so much, my friend. Again, feelings are always mutual. You're doing such great things in this world. And I'm just happy to be a part of it via this podcast once in a while. Always glad to be back. Thank you.
Alyssa Dver:
So, before we completely wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other episodes can be found on the website, www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again, that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others. And you can do it so easily just by liking and sharing this episode on your favorite social media channels. You can even give me some competence fueled by sending in any comments about the topics I've covered, or ones you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
This podcast was produced by Mindful Media. All rights reserved by Alyssa Dver and the American Confidence Institute. Music written and performed by Jeff Weinstein.
