Ep 31 How to Deal with a Toxic Boss
If you're smart and work hard, but just aren't where or who you want to be. Welcome to your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alisa Dver. And I'll be sharing a bit of brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.
Alyssa Dver:
Toxicity, it's not only a hard word to say, but even just saying it kind of makes my skin crawl, maybe hearing it, it's doing the same to you. And you know, it's a serious subject. And when it's your boss that's toxic. It's not only just kind of intellectually serious, but also emotionally destructive. So, we are going to pull this issue apart, give you some amazing ways to deal with it. And to help with this, I've asked an incredible human, Aidan Millar, who is based in the Toronto area, I got to meet because she did a talk about the neuroscience of flow. And when I heard her speak, not only did I realize how brilliant she is, but how incredibly specialist of a human she is. So, I am so grateful to her and her wisdom and her time today to come talk to us about how to deal with a toxic boss.
Aidan Millar:
Alyssa, you humbled me, and you honor me every moment I've had with you, and I am just so appreciative to be here beyond words, my friend beyond words.
Alyssa Dver:
Well, listen, you know, you have a consulting practice you teach you do you interact with a lot of people, and I know you hear about this toxicity problem all over the place, too. So, let's start with some of the basics if you don't mind, toxicity, toxicity is a hard word to say, let alone understand what a toxic boss is, define it for people.
Aidan Millar:
Absolutely. And you know, this is already a tricky and layered question Alyssa, because what we know is how you define or characterize toxicity almost has as much to do with you, as it has to do with the behaviors that you're trying to label. So why don't I do the popular thing already? And actually, answer your question with a question. When you think of the worst boss you've ever had no names, we'll keep this in Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But when you think of the worst boss, or even a caricature of the worst boss, you can imagine what three or four characteristics immediately come to mind for you tell me that?
Alyssa Dver:
Three or four? Oh, gosh, well, micromanaging, you know, get out of my face kind of thing, lack of trust and all that. Over communicating interesting pedantic, you know, they have to tell me 42 times and different ways to do things and I'm like, I got it, I got it. And I think the kids would testify that I do that to them, too. That's number two. I think number three is just the rude rudeness, right? Like they're Curt and rude, but no thought to how things are landing, and you can, you know, and then you leave, and you go, was that supposed to be offensive? Like, so that that would be my top three- how’s that?
Aidan Millar:
I mean, great words, not great to experience. So let me honor invalidate that experience for you. And I think that's why I want to ask because, you know, for the most part toxicity as the behaviors that we might use to characterize it can be really subjective to you. But one common theme, and I've asked people this over and over again, in my practice, what are the characteristics for you that come to mind? And they can be as disparate they can run the spectrum in terms of the answers you hear. But the key thing that makes something toxic, at least to me, is the impact it has on your biology, your emotional set of well, beingness at any given moment, all these characteristics come together. And the theme I would put over them is how they make you feel in terms of your self confidence in any given moment, your self-worth, your contribution, and actually on a neurobiological level, your threat response. So, you might even actually take the word toxicity, and you could even reframe it as fear, distrust or lack of contribution and belongingness.
Alyssa Dver:
I actually have chills literally like I know they can't see it on the audio, but I literally have chills because I think you just landed it in a place for me. That is clear that there's something that that boss is doing that is totally wigging, freaking me out whatever the words you want to wrap around it in a way that is we say visceral or, or you said emotional, but also physical like you literally can feel that you get that Oh, right.
Aidan Millar:
Totally. And that's also why you remember those bosses Alyssa we know that that response hangs out in the body. It hangs out in the mind for a lot longer, unfortunately than good memories. And that's why you actually tend to take those experiences into your future interactions with bosses, into future organizations. And that's why this topic is so important about what we can do to remain sovereign and resilient and full of integrity as we continue to move through our career, career and professional lives.
Alyssa Dver:
All right, well, so there's two questions that you literally just popped to the surface one, and we're gonna get to what we can do in a little bit. So, I'm going to hold off on that one, because that's really the moral of today's story, right? Do you think that most toxic bosses and we're talking about manager, boss level people today here, do you think they do it on purpose? And if so, why?
Aidan Millar:
That is such a good question. And my response may not be a popular one. Okay. So again, layers, right? What I will say is, in my opinion, for the most part, these irritating behaviors, or these behaviors, or we might even call them poisonous behaviors, I don't actually believe most of the time, they're about nefarious intent, as much as they really just are about unconscious or thoughtless dialogue and reflex reactions. So, for example, right? Think about that boss, I really don't think that that individual gets up in the morning, and consciously commits themselves to micromanaging others, bullying others, says to themselves, I can't wait to steal credit today. I can't wait to over communicate and make Alyssa feel like she's really not that smart. What I think happens is everyone comes with almost a briefcase or a griefcase, if you will, full of insecurities full of their own values, their own wishes, their own desires and despite the fact that most leaders know that their success hinges on others performance, we can't help ourselves. If we're not actively paying attention to the impact we're having on others, we often subconsciously and unconsciously hurt those relationships. Because sometimes our values don't align with the needs of those we're meeting. And if we're not conscious of that misalignment, and we're not careful about the perception of those values and those needs for us, then we all just kind of continue to do it. And we might not even be aware that the impact we're having is a negative one.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah. So yeah, I warn people, we're gonna do a little bit of a cursing here. So, you're basically saying somebody's shitting on you, because probably they got shut on themselves.
Aidan Millar:
Potentially. Or maybe their personality patterns or their traits are somewhat misaligned to your own, and they're exaggerated to your own. So, let's take over communication. I work with extroverted preferenced people all the time. And oftentimes, these individuals don't think they're over communicating what they're doing is thinking out loud. The problem is, they don't often allow a lot of space for other people to interject. Now, that's simply a personality trait that has gone unchecked, it's gone on monitored, and because of your principles, because of your desire to be heard, you now perceive that as toxic behavior. Now, at the same time, what I want to acknowledge is there is a small percentage amongst us about two to 5% of what I call the sociologically or criminologically deviant.
Now, there is such thing as people being toxic as baseline Alyssa, and I want to acknowledge that these folks that are toxic as baseline that is, it's not just episodic, they're not just making a series of choices that are offensive to our sensibilities. Some folks genuinely lack the ability or the interest in other people's perspective, we might call that a lack of empathy. We might call that a total disregard for the impact they're having on others. But It's Sociopath.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, that's it a CEO, just you know, there wasn't aligning research that they do align with that.
Aidan Millar:
So, exactly. And so, I want to acknowledge that, you know, it's not all totally about perception and pure intent. But the vast majority, don't commit themselves to that endeavor. We are actually also wired for belongingness and competence. And so, for the most part, I do think that these folks might actually be doing their best. But their best isn't quite what we need, or their best isn't quite an acknowledgment that they're being perceived in a negative light.
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, and again, this bullying topic, which has all these different flavors, and toxic bosses is one of them. It is consistently because they that person, the bully, needs to fuel their own confidence. And it's doing it in a way that is stealing it from others. Right. And that, you know, I think you're saying is, we don't necessarily have to have compassion for them. We don't have to feel sorry for them. But when we recognize that they're doing it in a way that is kind of, in some ways, hilarious, right? I mean, it's kind of like my boys always watch the Marvel movies, right? And it's the villains that are always taking stuff from other people. And, you know, if you look at your boss and that way and say, you know, they're villainous, and it's unfortunate they may not realize it, they're not, you know, doing it on purpose, but you can't use again, not to feel compassion not to feel sorry for them, but at least help reckon that it's not you. You didn't cause it, and you're just the receiver of it. Now, speaking of receivers, do you think some people are more prone to receiving the toxic behavior? Or do you think, you know, a toxic boss may not be toxic to everyone equally? Is that fair to say?
Aidan Millar:
Absolutely. So, what you find really beyond your threshold of toxic, it might not even register the same for me. So, it really also does depend on your so remember how I said sometimes toxic manifestation has to do with their insecurities, right? Their confidence needs their personality traits, so on and so forth. Well, it's also the same as the way that I see toxicity and how I respond to it also depends on my personality traits, my values, my needs. And it's often the things that are most misaligned with who I am, that I'm more quickly an athlete, ablest label is toxic. But there are certain people I'm against a word like we're all on the spectrum, there are certain personality types that go to more of a fond response than a fight or flight, for example. So, we know that that's a really key part of the threat response that we're learning more about is people pleasing can actually be a response to toxic behavior. And isn't that interesting when you think about the cycle? And the and the perpetuation that that exists in these organizations?
Alyssa Dver:
Yeah, so let's, let's even break that down for people who are not familiar with that. So, in some cases, you know, a toxic boss to like, for example, my husband would be like, yeah, he's just an asshole, ignore him, let it just let it roll off your back. Don't even bother. Right. So that's the kind of like, not indifferent, necessarily, just not letting it get under your skin and right, then there is that kind of defensive fight, I'm going to, I'm going to put that person in their place, I'm going to tell them what, right that's a fight response in some respect. And the fond that you said, is people pleasing is, oh, I gotta work harder to get that person's favor. And I think a lot of people who are listening or got Oh, ah, like, the fond response is so common and people pleasing in an organization. Could we say that that is potentially why the toxic people get away with it so often?
Aidan Millar:
Absolutely. So, I think there's a multiple multitude of factors and reasons that go into how and why toxic managers are not just permitted but promoted. And my boss always says that term, what you permit, you actually end up promoting, if not actively, but passively. And I think there's a multitude of things that go on, to your point, Alyssa, people who especially go to the fond response, they're more apt to actually stay in the organization and try to emulate or subjugate to the values being endorsed, and they ended up oftentimes burnt out disenfranchised and insecure in the role they're doing. Now, the alternative, if you're more apt to just walk away and say, I don't have to put up with this Good on you from that individual level. But what happens is, you end up leaving the organization, the organization continues to perpetuate that toxic cycle. But even when we leave and go into a new organization, we're still carrying all that trauma memory. And we actually carry some of that response into our new environment. And the question is, if we don't feel confident stepping into that new environment, could we potentially be the toxic ones?
Alyssa Dver:
So, we're gonna do two things. We're going to take a quick sponsor break because I want to come back and give people very specific ways to deal with a toxic boss right now today. And then I'm going to invite you back for another podcast where we can talk about how do you know if you're the toxic problem? Deal?
Aidan Millar:
Amazing. We love that. All right, give
Alyssa Dver:
All right, give us a few seconds. Come right back. We're gonna get back into it with Aidan about what to do if you have a toxic boss.
This podcast was sponsored by IT Cosmetics, and makeup and skincare company committed to helping all women view their confident fast. It Cosmetics campaign Confidence at Work provides free brain science-based resources, including educational articles and videos developed together with the American Confidence Institute. It Cosmetics also partners with Kiva, an international nonprofit that directly empowers underserved female entrepreneurs. Please learn more at itcosmetics.com/confidenceatwork.
Alyssa Dver:
All right, hang on to this podcast because we are going to get into really specific tips techniques to do's eight in this somebody's listening. They hate their boss because the boss is mean, condescending. whatever word you want to slot in there, but it's toxic. What should we do?
Aidan Millar:
Hmm, I think that's an awesome question and needs to be asked over and over again. Right. It goes back to that old adage you might I'd be able to change someone else, but you need to change your reactions to them. And I think the first and most important thing you can do is honor and acknowledge your experience in that, you know, you alluded to it before. Listen, one of the really valuable things I found in the book that you wrote, was how you need to reframe it as something that's wrong with you. As someone that says something that's simply wrong for you, you need to recognize it. First and foremost is simply a values misalignment, maybe a personality misalignment. And when you acknowledge that it's as simple as that, you don't feel that you have to subjugate or small yourself in response to that.
So, the first tip, actually kind of named it my three tips and tactics right first is intellectualize rather than internalize. So, challenge the assumptions you're making about that person's intention. And instead, simply label the behavior that you do or do not have to necessarily put up with. Also use it as an opportunity, Alyssa, empathy is so important. And if we're talking about how empathy is the dichotomous opposite to toxicity, this is an opportunity for you to grow your empathetic repertoire, by remembering perhaps that they don't know their bullying. They don't wake up in the morning and have it out for me. What can I challenge about my reactions to this situation? That's going to make me far less toxic in my future.
The second one, of course, you know, what? Why don't you humanize rather than villainized, it can be really easy to listen to your point, to say this is the villain in my life. Brene Brown talks a lot about the power of language. And the truth of the matter is when we label someone as a villain, we actually create toxic us versus them dichotomies. And in an organization that can be just as bad as having a toxic boss. So, when you humanize them, and you really acknowledge you know what, first of all, compassion is not an excuse. And empathy is not an excuse. But what if this person is really trying their best, and they're bringing a griefcase that I didn't know about? And as soon as you actually practice compassion, even if it's faked in the moment, you actually undo the threat response on a neurobiological level, because you're releasing different chemicals. It allows you to be a better problem solver with that person. So, if you don't do it for them, just do it for you.
And then the final is strategize. Really, you can and get to decide in your sovereignty and agency. Is this something that's fixable? By questioning my own ability to have conversations? Is it something that I can flex and compromise with and for? Or is this something I can look for other sources of confidence to compensate? Friends, role models, mentors? Is it time to choose a new role? Is it time to choose a different organization, and that's okay, we have to actually start seeing those choices as not failure, as actually something you're doing for yourself to re elevate yourself after a potentially negative experience?
Alyssa Dver:
I'm going to read this transcript; I am going to literally make it part of my memorization because there's so many things that you've said in here that were so profound. You know, I think as a bottom line, if there is a bottom line, because there's so many gems in here is that toxicity isn't something that necessarily has to be bad. It is a sign like an inner critic, but it's an outer critic in a way that if you use it in a productive way, you can improve how you handle things, what you learn and how you grow. And not to take it so personally not to take it so negatively.
Aidan Millar:
Absolutely.
Alyssa Dver:
Right. And you know, every time I talk to you, I am better on so many levels, I feel smarter, I feel more lucky, more fortunate. I feel it reminds me that the world has some incredible humans, and you're one of them. So, thank you for spending the time with me and our listeners here today.
Aidan Millar:
Alyssa, thank you always for having me. And as I always say, it must take one to know one because the feelings are very mutual, my friend. Thank you again.
Alyssa Dver:
Awesome. And for those of you who are listening, I did ask her to do a second podcast. So, I'm gonna keep her to it. And we'll put it out in the near future. But for now, today, thank you for joining us.
So before we completely wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other episodes can be found on the website, www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again, that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others and you can do it so easily just by liking and sharing this episode on your favorite social media channels. You can even give me some competence fuel by sending in any comments about the topics I've covered, or ones you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
This podcast was produced by Mindful Media. All rights reserved by Alyssa Dver and the American Confidence Institute. Music written and performed by Jeff Weinstein.
