EP 24: Real Confidence- How to Have Difficult Conversations with Confidence with Special Guest Roberta Matuson

May 15, 2022

How to Have Difficult Conversations with Confidence

Confrontation. The word by itself can make us want to run, hide, or bury our head in the sand. We avoid confrontation because we don’t have certainty around how the other person will react.

Will they think we’re out of line and put us in our place? Will they be hurt and cry? Will they be angry and lash out? Whatever could or might happen, the anxiety around having difficult conversations is something we all experience in our lives – some of us on the regular.

What qualifies as a difficult conversation? It comes down to this: it’s a conversation you don’t really want to have because it is likely to be embarrassingly awkward, uncontrollably emotional, even physically uncomfortable.

Where we get hung up is the underlying belief that when we confront someone, it’s going to be contentious. But while you and the person you’re confronting may not ever be on the same “side”, that doesn’t mean you’re wasting your breath or that it will end in disaster.

In this episode of Real Confidence, I’m joined by Roberta Matuson, author of “Can We Talk? Seven Principles for Managing Difficult Conversations at Work.”

We get into:

Why certain conversations are so darned hard for some of us
How to set the stage so your difficult conversation can also be productive
The role that trust - in yourself and the other person – plays in the outcome
Why you need clarity before you even think about saying, “We need to talk,”; and
What you can do today to make difficult conversations easier, even if you can’t make them feel good

For more than 25 years, Roberta Matuson has been helping organizations find, hire, grow, and keep top talent, saving them millions of dollars that would otherwise be lost in the recruiting process, and achieve dramatic growth because they have the best people.

To learn more about Roberta visit matusonconsulting.com. For information on where to buy her book, go here.

Episode Transcript

Ep 24: Confrontation Confidence

If you're smart and work hard, but just aren't where or who you want to be welcome to your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.

Alyssa:
It's always fun to talk with you, Roberta, because not only do you bring forward, all your executive coaching experiences your life experience as a human, but obviously, six-time author, so we share that affliction as well. But you know, one of the things that I really appreciate is you're a straight talker, right to the point. So, thank you for doing the podcast today.

Roberta:
Well, it's my pleasure.

Alyssa:
Well, let's get into this because I want to really, your book is called “Can We Talk? Seven Principles for Managing Difficult Conversations at Work.” And so, the topic today is literally navigating those difficult conversations, why and how they make us not feel confident and what we can do to overcome that. So maybe, let's just start, like you've written all these other books on leadership, you have this very beautiful, not just reputation, but you're a thought leader in this space, what all of a sudden made you write this about talking?

Roberta
Well, I found that a lot of the challenges that my coaching clients were having really was around these difficult conversations, and that they were not having them. And so, they were either not having them with their boss and so they're therefore they were disappointed when review time came along, or when they were passed over for promotion, or they were avoiding these conversations with their staff, or even their coworkers. And I found myself giving people the same advice over and over and over again. And then I thought, well, wouldn't it be better for them and easier for me to write a book on this topic that they could use as a guide. And so that was the real reason behind me writing this book. And what has happened since then it's very interesting. I've had a number of people say to me, I'm going to buy this book for my college-age daughter or son because they need this book. And I'm going to buy this book for my whole family because we need to improve our communication. So, although my intent did not start out to help people improve their relationships at home, that's really one of the side benefits.

Alyssa:
That's great. I love it. So, let's talk about what qualifies as a difficult conversation. Like what does that really mean? In the work, specifically?

Roberta:
Well, I think that means different things to different people. So, for me, hey, I don't care. It's easy for me to talk about money. It wasn't in the beginning, but it's easy now. But for someone else asking for a raise, man, that's just the hardest thing that they think they'll ever have to do. And they may be right. So, it really depends. It's a conversation that you don't really want to have. That's a difficult conversation, right?

Alyssa:
Yeah. So, can you give me some other examples of things that you hear that people struggle with conversations? I think listeners on the podcast, we get a sigh of relief, knowing that they're not the only ones feeling that that kind of conversation is just not fun?

Roberta:
Sure. I mean, the one that comes to mind is, you know, my boss is a micromanager. How do I tell them to stop? Like, that's huge, right? Or, you know, I have an employee who's not really doing very well, performance wise, but I don't want to hurt their feelings, or I'm afraid if I talk to them, they're going to leave. So that's a difficult conversation. And of course, there's the conversation about firing someone. So, I have a story to share with you about that. A former, well, actually, he's still a client of mine said to me, Roberta, I just fired so and so. And I said, Oh, really? I said, well, how long had you been thinking about doing that? And I kid you not he said 22 years?

Alyssa:
Ah, and he didn't do it because he was afraid to have the conversation.

Roberta:
I would think so. 22 years is a long time to hang on to someone who after year one, you quickly realized really wasn't the right fit for your company.

Alyssa:
Crazy. I mean, even like those conversations about can you stop putting fish in the microwave? I And people just will rather not. You, right? They'll just deal with it. And 22 years later, something happens, and they blow up and not the microwave but the person. Right?

Roberta:
Well, the microwave too., after 22 years, it's entitled.

Alyssa:
Well, let's talk about why this happens. And, you know, what is what? Why do people not confront that? What is so scary or so hard about these conversations at the core of it?

Roberta:
Well, people just don't know how to handle them. Right, which is why I wrote this book, because this particular book has very pragmatic step by step advice, you know, start here, then go here, then do this, you know, along with scripts for those of us like myself, who absolutely love to have a script, right. So that at least we know where to start, and then we can make it our own. But you know, I find that a lot of people just really, they're non-confrontational, and they don't like any kind of conflict. But what they don't realize is that these sorts of conversations, they don't have to be contentious. And you have to come from those, you have to come from a place of, you know, really wanting to help that person or, you know, from your heart, not because you're trying to prove that you are right, and they're wrong.

Alyssa:
Yeah, no, that's really it. Let's say that you don't have to prove that you're right. And they're wrong. I mean, I think that's a big piece of it. You're, you write it around the seven principles in the book in general. And the first one, yay, is confidence. So, in terms of your subtitle is trusting yourself and the other party so that that's an interesting perspective. And I'd like you to comment a little bit. Again, going back to this issue, like why is it so hard for people to have these conversations when and why do they think are contentious and conflicting? And how does that play into confidence?

Roberta:
Well, you know, you've got this little guy or gal on your shoulder saying, oh, boy, this is not gonna go, well, you're going to blow this, like, don't even bother. You know, last time you tried to have this conversation, this happened, right? So, you have all these things going on in your head. And so, you know, after a while, you start to believe them. But I always just say to my clients, listen, you know, we should be really grateful that nobody is shooting at us, right? I mean, we're pretty safe.

What's the worst thing that can happen? If we have one of these conversations? Maybe that person will, you know, agree and say, you know what, you're right. Let's talk about how to move forward. And so why not give it a try? But before you do, you know, it does take courage, and it does take confidence to have these conversations, I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not going to tell your listeners, like everybody can do this 123, you know. It just you have to believe in the in, in your talent you have to believe that you can do this. And I can assure you that you can?

Alyssa:
Yeah, well, you also brought up an interesting note in there about trusting your ability. But also, maybe giving the other person a little bit of not so much trust as confidence that they can actually come to the table as a human. Now, it'd be a little contentious with you right? Now, we can do this because we're all friends straight shooters to boot. I don't always believe that the other person is going to be that open minded, so you know that they are gonna raise their immediate defenses I even seen in my own family members, right? Like, you can say anything and it's like no, right defense and podcast for another day, perhaps. But I'd like your take on, you know, when you go into a difficult conversation, we'll get to how to do that in a little while, but when you go into that difficult conversation, what, what assumptions should you make about the other person?

Roberta:
I would really like you to assume good intent. So, for example, you know, my daughter just came home from college. And the last time we saw each other was probably three months ago. And, you know, she's once again had another really, you know, a period of growth. And, you know, we had one of those difficult conversations that every mother has with their daughter at some point, at least a dozen times, right. But I was I was really surprised. I approached it, like I actually read my own book, and I approached it with good intent. And her reaction rather than the normal like, you know, attack was, well, wow, I'm really glad you brought that up. Like let's unpack this. Let's talk about this. So, it can happen with one of your kids that moment, trust me, it can happen it work.

Alyssa:
See, they're going oh, gosh, yes it can, I think. You know, I think one of the challenges again, is that, you know, what is the intent is if the intent is for me to be right? It that's never going to be right. And you know, you even have it in the book let me pull up the page. I cracked up when I looked at it, why the need to be right can bring about the wrong results, right? So right i Oh, right.

Roberta:
Well, I'm the queen is right in my house. So, you could just imagine how those conversations used to go. And now I'm like, you know what this is? She's 21 years old, she's mature. Maybe I'm not right and that changes the dynamic, like so much. So, if you're at work, and you're one of these people, who always has to be right, and for a moment you play this role, where you're not, wow, just see how the other person reacts.

Alyssa:
First of all, are you feeling, okay? Sure, you have a fever, do you have COVID? You know, but this is an interesting point, too. Because as we do get older, it's inevitable that we, I'd like to believe we get wiser, but I think we also we get a little bit more like, you know, it's not worth the battle, we're tired, if we have other things that we want to focus our energy on, you know, there's all these legitimate excuses why being right is just too exhausting, and not worth the effort. So, not so much with your daughter, because, you know, family relationships work differently, but you see generational differences in the workplace with regards to these difficult conversations?

Roberta:
I do see I do, I think that the younger people are much better at it than the more mature people, because they're like, you know what, you know, anything goes, right? Let's talk about sex in the workplace. Let's talk about rock and roll, whatever, you know, like, they're really very open, you know, whereas my generation, like, oh, my God, like, we would never talk about that. And so, they really want to know what their bosses think. They want to know what their bosses think of their performance. And they want that feedback. And their bosses are like, oh, I don't know, I don't know if they can handle it. But they want it. So, I see a generational difference.

Alyssa:
Wow. But almost the reverse of what I said, so you're seeing that younger people particularly in work, are you think they're open and they respond to it. And the older people are kind of like, I'm stuck. In my ways. This is me take me or leave me.

Roberta:
Sometimes, sometimes, but I'm saying it more from the younger people really wanting the feedback. And if the boss is somebody who is more mature, they're the ones who don't really want to have that conversation. Because, yeah, you know, maybe they're not going to tell that person they're as great as that person might think they are, but that person can handle it.

Alyssa:
What about the other way around? What if it's a young person trying to give feedback or conversation difficult conversation to an older person? Have you seen the same, you know, openness for that?

Roberta:
Well, so it all depends. And I really hate putting people in boxes based on their age. I really do because it's sometimes it's just the personality of the person you're dealing with.

Alyssa:
Absolutely.

Roberta:
But, you know, one of the things that I wrote in the book is that you as the person starting the conversation really have to get clear on the purpose of this conversation. So, if you have that clarity, then you're able to figure out like the best way to get to that goal, right? But if you're just going in there going, like, I know, there's something wrong. I'm going to have a discussion. I don't really know where I'm going, like it's a mess.

Alyssa:
Yeah, yeah, no, that's really profound. And, you know, I want to ask you one more question on that level. And, you know, forgive me, it's not to put anyone in a box. But because I do so much work in diversity, I'm just really personally curious, do you see differences based on ethnicity or other factors that make people either more open to these difficult conversations or that much more guarded?

Roberta:
The only differences that I see are really based on culture. Meaning somebody might be from another country, they might be from Russia, or somebody might be from, I have a client that's in South Korea, like, you know, when you're in a multicultural organization, if you're from Japan, you're taught to respect your elders and you don't confront, you know, there's a lot of cultural things that go on, but from a, diversity, I'm Hispanic, she's African American. I have not seen that.

Alyssa:
Okay, but it does go back to I think the core of having clarity of what the objective is and being well intended. And so, what I want to do is I want to take a really quick sponsor break and we're going to come back, and I want to talk now nuts and bolts. All right, so now I have to have a conversation with somebody, I know that it's not going to be comfortable or innately comfortable. And I want you to give some tips on how to approach that cool?

Roberta:
Cool.

Alyssa:
This podcast is sponsored by the ERG Leadership Alliance, ELA is making workplace diversity and inclusion a reality by equipping leaders with the knowledge and tools to run effective employee groups. You can learn more about ELA's many events, training, and tools at www.ERGleadershipAlliance.com.

Alyssa:
We're back and I'm talking with my wonderful friend Roberta Matuson about her new book, but this juicy topic of difficult conversations and how to have it. So, we're going to plow into real tips like what can people do? So, let me throw some scenarios if you will, Roberta, and let's see what kind of tips kind of float out of that I have to fire somebody? How do I prepare for that difficult conversation?

Roberta:
Well, first of all, were a lot of us are still working remotely. And so, in the past, I would tell you, like oh my god, don't ever do that remotely. But because this is where we are today, I would say when you're teeing up the conversation, you want to say to that other person, when you're scheduling, the call is that, you know, I'd like to have a conversation with you, I'd like you to be somewhere where you have some privacy. So, tell me when a good day and time is for you.

The second thing is, you have to ask that individual, you know, you know, please put your camera on, right? Because we don't want to like we want to be able to, you know, see their reaction to what we're about to say, so that we can kind of steer the conversation. So, it's just really important to make sure that the setting is right. And then you have to be clear on the fact that this is not a time to go over every single thing they did wrong, like, you know, back in 2012, and 2014. It's like, look, you know, here's where we're currently at and as a result of that, I'm going to need to let you go. And so, you also need to make sure that you give that person time to process this information. Because I know that you know whether it's in person or on Zoom, you just want to get out of the room. But that person like you've been planning this, and you knew it was coming, and maybe they didn't. So, it's really being respectful, and saying to yourself, you know, if this were to happen to me, how would I want to be treated?

Alyssa:
Yeah, I love that. And I know I'm asking you to kind of summarize your entire book and like a statement here. So, by all means, if you're listening, and you're like, I need to know, read the book. Get the real scripts and all the details that Roberta goes through so beautifully. Let's like kind of do a little bit more of that prep stuff. So, if I'm going into a difficult conversation, let me change the scenario just to give a different flavor. Let's say that there's somebody that doesn't let me speak up in meetings, right? And I'm just sick of it. Like they're talking over me or they just they won't let me they won't listen to me. They're not how to like, you know, I know that they're already not gonna listen to me, is there something that you can give me as a tip that would be like, do this, and then go have that conversation that hey, you need to listen to me?

Roberta:
Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, nobody likes to be put up against the wall. Right? So, it's all how you start the conversation. And you know, I like to start with, you know, I'm wondering if you would allow me to share with you some observations. Now, that's a rhetorical question, right? Because what are they going to do say no? And then I like to use the word I feel, because nobody can tell you that your feelings are wrong. So, you know, I feel like when we're in meetings, you tend to speak over me. That's different than when we're in meetings. You speak over me? Well, no, I don't Well, yes, you do. And you just did it now. So then that gets into that conflict. And then I tell my clients to have specific examples. And so like, you know, listen, at our team meeting on Friday, at one o'clock meeting, five said this, and before I even finished my sentence, you jumped in. And the same thing happened on Wednesday, and the Wednesday prior. And if you want more examples, I'm happy to share them with you.

You know, and the other person is probably going to say, wow, I had no idea I was doing that. And then you're like, well, yeah, so then, then you're like, where do we go from here? Right?

Alyssa:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you hope they again, we hope that they're going to be open to it.
Of course, having the data is always a good weapon if you will. But I feel this way and it makes it like, prove me I'm wrong. But yeah, love that.

Roberta:
The data is not meant to be a weapon, because we're not here to have we're not here to have a battle. The data is just to support your observations.

Alyssa:
Yeah, no, well put no. Yeah, no, thank you for correcting me on that. That's absolutely a better way of looking at it.
Let's take the, the fish example, because I think, you know, I feel doesn't really fit there. But you know, if you have somebody that's doing something at work, that's really, even if it's not that inconvenient for everybody, but maybe it's just something that's they're doing, that's really not okay with you, maybe it's a cubicle next to you, and the person is always talking out loud on the phone, whatever. It's just something that's just causing you angst. So, I feel or how do you approach that?

Roberta:
I'm wondering if you realize. Easy, right?

Alyssa:
Right.

Roberta:
I'm wondering if you realize, I said, you know that that voice is really carried in our cubicles. And so, you know, and especially when you have a headset on, right, I don't know about you, but man, I'm always louder when I have a headset. So it's sort of like, I'm wondering if you might be able to just kind of Lower your voice a little bit, or if you've got a conversation that you know, is going to be a really dicey conversation that you might get a little excited if you could take that in the conference room, so it's just making that person aware, and then saying, and, by the way, if I'm doing the same thing, please, please tell me.

Alyssa:
Yeah, you know, I would also add when they do it to reinforce how much you appreciate it. Right. Right. Hey, you know, I noticed a difference today. That was awesome. I'm really grateful. Right?

Roberta:
Totally.

Alyssa:
Yeah. So, I think that's a really important way to, to, we're all humans, and we have that behavioral cycle. So, remind them know they could slip up again. And, you know, just a reminder, that would be really appreciated.

Roberta:
Yeah. And the other thing is, like, look at it from their perspective, like, why is it in their best interest to comply with your request? And you could say, you know, I'm sure you really didn't want me hearing about the argument that you and your wife were having, and God knows, I really didn't want to be part of it, either.

Alyssa:
So before, I could talk to you for hours, as we often get into these beautiful conversations outside of the podcast, but one of the, the things that I really want to leave our listeners with is, you know, on their journey, should they find a conversation to go after? Or what what's a really good next step or thing that they should keep in mind? When that moment comes up? And they go, oh, crap, I've got to have this terrible conversation or seemingly terrible conversation like? What kind of little nugget, can you drop in their brains to make it a little easier?

Roberta:
So, I would suggest that they consider that right now write down three conversations that you've been avoiding. Okay, because I'm sure you have a dozen, but let's just go with three. And then start with the easiest one, don't start with the one that you wrote down first, because oh, my God, like, that's so big. And then, you know, start with the easiest one first, and practice the skills that we talked about, read through some of the scripts that I wrote and make them your own. And, you know, you'll be really surprised how much better you're going to get, the more you practice. And then when you're ready, you can tackle the biggest conversation on that list.

Alyssa:
So small steps, always good. Small wins let's celebrate those. Let's recognize we get it right. But like you said, maybe take something that's a little less scary and get that experience under your belt thing. That's very wise.

We are going to post all kinds of information in show notes about how to find you as an executive coach as an author your beautiful books, but why don't we just say it on the podcast best way to reach you is what?

Roberta:
You can email me at [email protected] or you can send me an invite on LinkedIn and let's connect let's talk.

Alyssa:
Yeah, let's talk. For those of you who are listening. She has amazing content on LinkedIn. She's one of the champions of LinkedIn literally like they recognize her as one of the leading leaders. So definitely plug into her they are and Roberta grateful is not even close to how I feel about your time here and our friendship. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Roberta:
Thank you!

Alyssa:
And anytime you want to talk, let's do it. So, before we completely wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other episodes can be found on the website www.AmericanConfidence Institute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others. And you can do it so easily just by liking and sharing this episode on your favorite social media channels. You can even give me some confidence fuel by sending in any comments about the topics I've covered, or ones you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.

EP 24: Real Confidence- How to Have Difficult Conversations with Confidence with Special Guest Roberta Matuson

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