Ep 21: Can You Dress for Yourself AND Success?
If you're smart, work hard, but just aren't where or who you want to be, welcome to your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host, Alyssa Dyver, and I'll be sharing a bit of brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. Let's get to it.
Alyssa:
My friends you're in for such a treat in this podcast. This is an honor, a privilege, just a delight for me to introduce you all to somebody that I met about two years ago, I think now. We're not going to say where she actually works at the moment, but you're going to hear some really cool reasons why she used to be at a very conservative, large financial institution now works for one of the best known, most awesome tech companies. And, and some of the changes that she's made in her life, not just the work stuff, but more importantly, the reason I asked her to be here is one day I'm on zoom with her and she got purple pigtails, total skulls all over her really adorable top. And I said, Did you just like this back at the bank? Because she said, Are you kidding? So we're going to talk about that with this wonderful person know as Anna Ettin. Anna, thank you for being here. Thank you so much, my friend, I'm super excited to have this conversation with you. Alright, so let's just go back a little bit you were with. And I'll say it was a bank, you were the bank for how long?
Anna:
Almost 20 years, I started there as in my early 20s. I was a punk rocker coming out of high school, I needed great health insurance and took a job as a teller worked my way up the last bit of what used to be a corporate ladder, and had a fantastic career there. I really enjoyed myself. What I didn't realize until after I left was that it had really shaped the way that I thought and behave in some unexpected ways. And I think that's what sparked our conversation today.
Alyssa:
For sure, for sure. So give some examples. What were some of the things that I guess in hindsight, or maybe even just were there things that you knew then in there, you're like, oh, I'm doing this, but I really don't want to.
Anna:
I'm sure that there were at points, it's difficult to reflect in that way. I mean, some of them were very functional things, I now work for a company that does a lot of longer form writing. I used to work for a company that that use PowerPoint. And so those are their different ways of constructing information, and presenting information. And because I had spent almost two decades working exclusively in PowerPoint, I didn't realize until I was then challenged to write a longer form document, how much it had really shaped the way that I put together information, the way that I thought about things. So that's one example, very tactical example, for sure.
Alyssa:
But you know, this is the real confidence show. And so again, as I was looking at your purple pigtails that day, and I hope I'm not offending you, you're not you worked at the bank for 20 years. So you're not 20 years old anymore, obviously. Like, did you know that you were just dressing to the play the part there? Did you know what at the time?
Anna:
So, yes, and no, you know, beginning early and career. You know, I began in banking at a time where we were just a couple of years out of pantyhose. I mean, toddlers were still expected to wear skirts and hose. And so I fortunately came in at a time where it were, you know, pans were acceptable. I could wear a sun dress without you know, hose underneath but it was not long after and so they're very much was a certain manner of dressing that was acceptable for the role and I don't think like any industry, right? I sort of thought of it as I'm going to wear my banking uniform today. Right? So if I were going into fast food or into a warehouse or doing landscaping, I would have whatever appropriate clothing so this was my banking uniform. And I was able to tell myself that for a long time, over the course of years, one can typically only afford a wardrobe versus several and so I think eventually as a younger person as I came out to the world started acquiring items, spending more money, but my wardrobe became mostly work and then it became all work.
Alyssa:
I’ll stop right all are in all work no play but all work probably all black or gray mostly.
Anna:
Well, I managed to keep yes, mostly so um, but but I did manage to keep a little bit of color. People would always joke and say, Oh, you're probably from HR, aren't you because I'd have a green blouse on with a black suit or, or some big funky earrings hidden underneath, you know, are some fun jewelry. So I tried to keep a little something of my own sort of nature there. But stylistically, I mean, very traditional clothing, very traditional hair, makeup, nails, etc.
Alyssa:
Yeah, well, nails when you got on you, showing me your gorgeous cotton candy nails and talking about your colorful masks on top of the colorful hair and all the other stuff that you done now. So, you know, when you did make the decision to leave, you have to you have to re-wardrobe but it sounds like.
Anna:
well, I didn't even think about it that way. It was such an after effect. And I mean, even interviewing for the company I worked in now I was told I could wear anything I wanted to an interview, I thought, well, you know, you say that and they said no, if you wear a suit, you will be the only person in the building wearing a suit. You're welcome to if you would like to but no one else in the building will have one on. And so I dress down a little bit for myself, I chose a dress, which was not as formal as I would have worn in financial services. But definitely a little fancier than, than the corporate offices here. And so it took me even after meeting a teammate that had rainbow colored hair, it still took me almost a year before I pulled that trigger myself to make a big change in my physical appearance that felt a little bit back to me.
Alyssa:
Well so let's like get some juicy now we we've gotten kind of like the the facts out on the table. But I mean like she you change jobs. It doesn't sound like it was intentionally so you could dress differently. And of course dressing is just one symbol of everything here. But you know, was there this like liberation? Did you feel like oh my god, I can actually be as we say, our authentic selves? Did you feel that? Was there a moment?
Anna:
I don't know, if there's a moment, there were multiple moments where I have these sort of realizations of, Wow, I didn't realize how much I didn't feel like myself. Until now I do. And so I think a couple of those things that sort of sparked by sparked my memory right off. One was just the complete nonchalance with which everybody looked at my tattoos, I mean, nobody cared anything at all, that I had tattoos. I got zero reactions, except positive ones when I dyed my hair purple. I dyed my hair sort of a dark purple. And the only thing I heard from colleagues were compliments, about how nice it looked. And I happen to have a purple wall in my office and somebody said, You're glowing against your walls. So, I mean, I really didn't realize how much I didn't feel like myself until some of these things started happening. And the wardrobe was a bit later than the hair. I went for the hair first. And then the the wardrobe certainly started to change. No COVID and working from home more often helped that as well. And just being able to be in my own space, or for people.
Alyssa:
Yeah, absolutely. For you know, so it's interesting, because I've seen even in the ERG Leadership Alliance, we've seen people change over the last year or two in terms of, you know, shoulders up even right, you can you can see that they're doing different things and expressing themselves. So I didn't say it in the beginning of the introduction here, you kind of dropped a little hint, but you are not just in HR, but you are in diversity, equity inclusion now. And I wonder, you know, in hindsight, what were like some of the gems that you've learned in your own journey to bring forward yourself and now be able to say to other people, you know, this is really important. And like, what are some of the things that you wish you knew then?
Anna:
Yeah, so I must give the caveat I'd have I feel like I have a little bit of positional privilege because I am in my mid 40s, I've been in corporate for two decades, I feel like I've, I've carved out a niche space for myself, and that does offer a bit of positional privilege. I don't think that my colleagues are going to change their opinion of my decision making because of the color of my hair at this point in my career, in my 20s they might have and so I have to acknowledge that for people that are at different stages of their career, that that positional privilege might not be there. And so I will offer any advice that might come out of my mouth in the next few minutes to say, please be careful with your own career, right? I mean, be thoughtful about your own career. If being able to wear your nose ring and have visible tattoos and purple hair and spiky shoes, and whatever you want to wear is super important then choose wisely and find a company and a career that offers that level of acceptance. I mean, and as I you know, same place I started from different careers have different uniforms. And part of that goes along with, you've got to decide what is most important to you on your list of criteria. And if you get 10 things out of a job, you know, if you've got a list of 10 criteria, you're probably not going to get all of them. And so what needs to be at the top?
Alyssa:
Yeah, no, I think it's really, really important to say that, I think not only the culture and the industry, and you as a person, these are all factors in in and as we come back from our break, we're going to really sit down and think about what is it if somebody is feeling like they're just uncomfortable? We're in the middle, as we recording this great resignation, I think a lot of this is that turmoil of I don't feel right in the job that I'm in, and how much and what can we tell people as far as figuring out those things that just feel like you're not in your own skin? Maybe it's your clothing, but maybe it's your boss, maybe it's whatever, maybe it's the industry or the task. So we'll come back in just a minute. But before we take a break, Anna, I don't want to lose the gem that you dropped, which is I think we've heard other people in fact, we have a mutual friend and her daughter got fired at a company because she wanted to have something on our car, right? So you know, as a professional, particularly in HR DEI space, are there laws, are there things that we need to literally tell people you need to be aware of. So they don't get into that trouble. Because this was not a law, but it was certainly a cultural issue.
Anna:
Certainly, I would advise, we should each be as familiar as we can with workplace laws and our own states and our own municipalities. But certainly read your HR handbook from start to finish. It is there for a reason. There are things in there that may feel boring, but you don't know you need them until you need them. And so, you know, I think information is one of the most valuable things that we can have. And so arm yourself with all of the information that you can about the companies that you're working for.
Alyssa:
Excellent. All right, so it's a great lead, and we're going to take a minor break for our sponsor. When we come back, we're gonna talk some more specifics, how to really find your authentic self in a way that's safe and fraying and feels good to everyone. So we'll be right back.
This podcast is sponsored by the ERG Leadership Alliance. ELA is making workplace diversity and inclusion a reality by equipping leaders with the knowledge and tools to run effective employee groups. You can learn more about ELA's many events, training and tools at www.ERGLeadershipAlliance.com.
Alyssa:
Alright, I'm here with the awesome, amazing I have lots more A's after that, but Anna, she's one of my favorite people on the planet. And I love you for so many reasons, including the fact that you decided to express yourself in a visual way at work. And it was serendipitous, if you will, because of your career change. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of people out there that are itching to express themselves. And I said on another podcast is actually doing on editing this weekend. Authenticity, that word kind of makes me twitch because it gives people permission to be assholes. And we're not talking about that kind of authenticity. Right? Question for you somebody at work? It was a big loaded question on I know this, Anna, but I can ask you because you're brilliant. Somebody that work and they're like, I just feel like I can't do me. Do you remember what that felt like? And what? Again, maybe what would you tell your younger self or somebody out there who's feeling like they're just in the wrong outfit? Maybe.
Anna:
Yeah, absolutely. And I similarly, kind of roll my eyes. Wait, we have to thank people these days for being authentic because, I mean, that shouldn't have to be a thing, right? That we should I hope for each of us that we are able to be our authentic selves. But having been in places in my life where I couldn't, you know, let’s think back to that. So I think some of it is being willing to take small risks. And if that is that could be with appearance, or that could be with, with the way that you are managing your work or your relationships in the workplace. If you feel like you are not able to speak your mind, if that's the self that you can't be, you may look for advocates around you to help create some safe space. And you may just have to take that leap, and make the statement in the team meeting that you have been afraid to make or call your boss aside and ask for the conversation that you've been hesitant to have. There is no way to know until you try it. calculated risks are very important. So when I began, you know, as I was in a more conservative dressing environment, I took calculated risks. So I wore big funky jewelry. There's nothing in our company policy that said I couldn't wear big funky jewelry, I might not have looked the same as everyone else. But I still felt like me. I still had my stuff there.
You know, I was very conscious that in the industry that I worked in, most of the Senior Executive Women had very straight hair, and I have curly hair. And for many years I would try to straighten or flag my hair to get that more executive look. And I remember, because it felt messy somehow it was as if my curliness was perceived as unkempt as if my unkempt hair than meant that I was not as professional as someone else. And this I happen to be a white woman, there are black women that deal with this all day, every day for their entire careers, perception of hairstyles. And I remember the first time that I saw a senior executive woman at my company with curly hair. And I mean, it was I think I might have actually sent her an email and thank her, I don't I don't remember if I ever click said but I know I wrote her want to say like thank you for just wearing your hair the way that it comes out of your head.
Alyssa:
No, no bra burning just a blow dryer burning. Let's just do it.
Anna:
Oh my gosh, then that. I mean, what do you think about there are we won't go too far down the rabbit hole, we think about the exponential impact. So for a woman that has curly hair, to straighten or manage her hair every day in such a way, there is time, there is money, there's just the time you have to stand there doing it every day. There's the money invested in the products, there's time loss that you could be spending with family, or doing something else
Alyssa:
Preoccupation all day long, right? Because you can do it. Sorry. You know, it's so funny, Anna, like we're talking very female centric issues here. But this applies to every gender and of course, you know, as genders are becoming more and more fluid, I really hope that if there's male identifying people listening, not just for yourself, but your daughters, your sons, your gender fluid children, your friends, you know, there are these similar issues, maybe it is not hair for somebody, maybe like you said a nose ring or a tattoo or something else that is really part of their identity, part of who they are.
Anna:
What's all covering, isn't that I mean, right? What we're in some ways, what we're talking about is covering. It is covering a piece of my identity to either fit into whatever workplace work expectations are there or whatever societal expectations are there for me. And so it absolutely whether it is. Yes, this is definitely not just about women. And I would say particularly as we begin to gain appreciation and and more than acceptance, appreciation for the fluidity of gender and the many different ways in which people are that we've got to got to think more carefully and creatively about what that means about how we look. And so I think about the body positivity movement that really initially kicked off to combat the stigma around fatness and to bring some body acceptance. And there are people that talk now about body neutrality, body positivity. But I think what that means is that each of us can now have permission to look however we look.
Alyssa:
Yeah, and I may take time to break some of the biases but at least it feels like some of those walls are coming down and you know, I think there's a sadness here for me anyway, you know, young, we're kind of rebellious we are who we are. And then we have to fit into the lane of whatever the company or organizational uniform, as you said earlier, and then we finally come out sometime and we know, at least at the Institute, you know, it's about 60 years before we look back and go, shoot, that's not who I am, right? And we become our full selves. So the goal is to really be who you are, express who you are sooner better faster. I just wonder, do you see this really changing? And you're kind of a leading edge in the organization or in in the, the department you're in do you see this changing fast and furiously? Do you? Do you think in the next 510 years, 20 years, we're going to be able to have these bias breakdown?
Anna:
I'm a relentless optimist by nature, so my answer immediately is going to be yes. But I do believe yes, some of that will be the generational shift. As the kids today are now growing up in an environment, at least for many of them in which they have the opportunity to be whoever they are, whatever that may mean to them from neurodiversity, to gender fluidity to any number of other things that we are learning to, to break down stigmas about and to become more inclusive and appreciative and understanding of each other. So I think some of that will be the generational shift. And many of us older generations are watching them and say, damn it, right. Let's go with that. Right, please.
Alyssa:
As we're wrapping up, you know, it can help as you're talking this whole time. Every time I meet somebody on a podcast or interviewer says to me, what's the worst advice you you've ever got? I have an answer. And I'm going to give it which will buy you an extra 30 seconds to think about the best advice you ever got relative to this topic. Like the best advice somebody said to you, or the best nugget that you're like, dang, because the worst thing my mother in law, so a generation above me. When I said to her, what should I just heard this particular event? Now mind you as a formal event in New York City, just saying her advice to me was blend, you should always aim to blend and I looked at her I was like, that's the worst advice I've ever got, like, blend. Like What? And so it's kind of a running joke in my head perpetually. So as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, I wish I knew you a long time ago, because we could have been joking about this 20-25 years ago, but best advice or if there's some piece of advice you wish somebody never said to you, I'm game to hear that too.
Anna:
I think the, um, the old adage about dress for the job that you want is I think it needs a reframing, right? It's dress to be the person whom you are in the job that you want.
Alyssa:
I’m clapping if they want to wonder what that noise is, I'm so excited. That's awesome. Say it again.
Anna:
Yeah, dress to be the person who you are in the job that you want.
Alyssa:
I love that. I love that. Because I think that's where we want to push things to be so that if somebody is really competent, and passionate about the role that they're going to do, it really shouldn't matter what color their hair is, or how many holes they have in whatever clips is they want as long as they're bringing them the whole selves to the job. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being you. Thank you for sharing such confident words and inspiring all of us, including especially me.
Anna:
Thank you so much for the invitation Alyssa and for all of the listeners sometimes purple hair does make you smarter. I'm just saying.
Alyssa:
Yes, yes. With that, thanks for everyone for listening.
So before we completely wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other episodes can be found on the website, www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again, that the best way to get confidence for yourself is to give it to others and you can do it so easily just by liking and sharing this episode on your favorite social media channels. You can even give me some confidence fuel by sending in any comments about the topics I've covered, or ones you'd like me to consider for the future. So for now, this is Alyssa Dvyer, thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
This podcast was produced by Mindful Media. All rights reserved by a listed here in the American Confidence Institute. Music written and performed by Jeff Weinstein.
