EP 144
Welcome, fellow confidence crusaders, neuro nerds, and success equalizers. This is your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So let's get to it.
Alyssa:
I've got one of my favorite people. She's not only a fellow neuro nerd, but she is just a beautiful human being who I could spend hours and hours and talk to. But we're going to get the benefit of Bruna De Palo, and she is going to talk about her new beautiful book. I'm so excited. The Brain Instruction Manual for Leaders, Bruna. So happy you're with me always.
Bruna De Palo:
Thank you so much. You're always so kind. It's really a pleasure to be here.
Alyssa:
Now you are, you know, a neuro nerd, as I said, neuroscience executive coach and keynote, and this is your first book. But in reading it, it's as if this is what you have been doing forever. So anyone who's like, "oh, another book, trust me, this is not only fantastic, but it's fun to read. And the premise is so interesting in so many ways. So I guess my first question has to be like, what is the intention of the book? You want people to do what in learning about their brain, other people's brain? What is the whole kind of goal here?
Bruna De Palo:
That's my favorite question, Alisa. Thank you for asking because I think it's way much more than than what it says. I mean, it's brain instruction manual for leaders. It means it helps leaders, and by leaders I mean leaders in the organization, but also leaders in the family, to better understand what's going on in the internal machine, either you know their own or others, and that of course facilitate relationships, especially communication, collaboration, and so on. But beyond that, the reason I wanted to to write this book is because I wanted to do my very, very, very tiny, small part in, you know, I don't mean fixing because that's a big word, but trying to do something for the world and the condition in which the world is right now. I mean, the situation is really, really bad, especially because we were led by toxic leadership, which we thought a few years ago we were perhaps leaving behind. You know, with all this training and all you know DEI, and there was a revolution that's now being stopped, and we're in trouble again, and perhaps even more than before. So I've been reflecting on this for quite a while, and then I say, "But why are we in this situation? We were somehow evolving, especially the corporate world was evolving. What happened that brought us back so much?
And then I realized my my perspective is we spend way too much time with technology rather than with human beings, so we don't have the ability to practice as much our empathy or what makes us humans, which often manifests when we relate to other humans. You know, there are a lot of studies on the empathy gap, studies that prove that level of empathy you can feel in the morning is much less in the evening. Same person if you spend the whole day in front of the laptop. So the less you practice empathy, the less available it is when it's needed.
Now, what that like empathy also are the characteristics of human beings. So basically, what I realized is that we've been designed in a good way, like as human beings, because of how things are going, especially in the corporate world, in the Western side of the world, we are acting more like human doings. So we're no longer acting as human beings. So there are there is a mismatch between how we've been designed and how we are operating. How are we using our machine, and these results in lack of empathy? You know, closing both eyes on tragedies that are happening on in the world, the way we treat our kids or colleagues or neighbors. This is my problem. This is the problem I wanted to contribute in my tiny way to solve, and that is let's go back to live again like human beings, and not just by you know doing nice talks. We should you know should be more empathetic. It's about mechanics. It's about understanding how the machine has been designed, how it works, and when you start using it in the way it's been designed, of course you have a more human kind of attitude towards yourself and towards others too. So it is a book for leaders, but more than that, I think is a book about humanity and what it means being humans and how to reconnect with that nature, not just by talking in philosophical terms, but in practical terms, what does this mean? And then, you know, I explore this this topic from from a very practical perspective.
Alyssa:
Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more with your explanation. There is exactly what it is. However, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate because I think we, you and I, but I think a lot of the listeners will also relate the fact that a lot of the toxicity is a protection mechanism. It's their way of not having to deal with stuff that otherwise would feel challenging, and I get a lot of pushback sometimes from people in organizations that say, "well, I don't need to be empathetic. I need to lead, or I don't need to be compassionate because we don't do DEI anymore. You know, there's all these convenient excuses, I guess. So if somebody were saying, "why should I read this book? Why should I change? What is the real value, the benefit to somebody personally, that when they understand their machine and other people's machine, their brains, what do they get out of it?
Bruna De Palo:
Good question. They save energy, Alyssa. This is the most important thing. I mean, the way I wrote it, it was for a let's say a bigger meaning. The way you read it, there's something very practical that you can bring back home, and that is having more energy at the end of the day for your own life, for your kids, for your hobbies, for your passion, for reading, for watching movies, for whatever it is that you want to do in your spare time. But you can do because you are exhausted after a long day of emails and conversation and argument and so on, now if you understand how the machine works, you learn to use it in a more efficient way. Now, what I argue in the book is that if it's efficient, it's because it's in alignment with how human beings have been designed, and of course, the result, the output, is more humanity in the corporate world, and let's go back to what is your own benefit when you understand how you function. It's a little bit like understanding, for example, how glucose works in your body. Like you can read an interesting book on that. Yeah, that's interesting. But what does this change in my life? Well, if you understand how it works, you understand that, for example, instead of investing so much time and energy and emotion in a diet, perhaps it's easier if you stabilize your level of glucose because you understand how it works. You understand the impact, and you understand that those cravings come from that. So, what is the benefit of understanding the role of glucose in the body. Well, at the end of the day, you use it in a way that is more efficient for you, so you can feel more energized. You can have better relationship. You can do sport. You can start new chapters in your life, and so on. So I would say it's kind of the same. When you understand how to use the machine, you waste much less energy, and that comes through arguments that are not needed, confrontation that could be avoided, task you know that you approach with a lot of stress. Well, there is a different way. Even if the situation is stressful, there is a better way to address something that by nature is stressful, but you can control your energy. So at the end of the day, is a you know it's like a coin with double benefit. One is you know you change your role in society, and this can have an impact on on humanity. In your own personal life, means bringing you back to who you are, so you can be more of yourself rather than a human doing a machine that keeps doing things, you know there are so many people as I was trapped in the wrong career. Why? Because they've lost touch with who they are really, and perhaps they cannot even feel what is their calling or how to get there. In the same way as there are leaders that perhaps perhaps lead in a way that is not efficient, but they don't know any any other way.
Alyssa:
Yeah, but they don't even know that it's not efficient, right? They just, like you said, maybe the end of the day they come home, they're so tired, they don't want to talk to anyone, right? And that's not going to feel good to the rest of their family or their friends, right? So there are signs and symptoms that you know you're fighting the machine or fighting who you are, and exhaustion is certainly a very good barometer. I think you know you brought up some other ones. You said you might be having some arguments, or maybe it's taking you three times longer that you know to write an email because you're. So worried about you know how to position something, right? So there's these subtle things that I in the book that I was like, oh, oh yeah. Now, I think there's another devil's advocate position I have to take here, which is I because I get this as a confidence crusader, and I I'm sure you do too, which is when you understand how other people's brains work, is that manipulation? When you say I'm going to do something this way or send an email that way, is that considered manipulation, or is that you know is that positive for both sides? And I think I know what you're going to say, but I really want to debunk this perspective that it's a bad thing to understand and make things smoother communication. So, how do you feel about that when somebody says that to you?
Bruna De Palo:
Yes, I've been asked this question indeed, and it's a genuine one. I totally get it. Well, firstly, here we're not talking about techniques. I mean, there are some techniques and some tools in the book, but the point is understanding the dynamic, the brain dynamics-that's the main core of the book-and the technique stem from those dynamics. So, if you understand the whole logic, once you read the book, you won't have this question in mind. But I understand that before reading it, you might have it. So, what is what? What does it mean? Manipulation. Manipulation is when I try to make you do something, do or say something that I want you to say or do, but you're not aware of that. In that case, is manipulation. And let's be honest, there are a lot of books and a lot of authors that try to teach these manipulation techniques, especially in sales or you know the darker world on manosphere on whatever book is not about that. It's really about understanding where you are and when the other person is. So let's say, for example, you and I are having an argument. Maybe you are my leader and I am your direct reporter. We are having an argument before and after the book. Before it would be just your point of view, my point of view. We can argue for days, and we might never reach a point. And it's okay; we don't have to end the argument in an agreement necessarily. But we must find a way forward that is satisfying for both.
What might happen after the book is that you and I still think differently and might not agree, but we stop talking about you said she said they did. This is you know it's it's just surface level of conversation. If I read the book and I am having an argument with you, I might be able to see in your words and in your attitude that perhaps you might feel threatened by something, and if I look through the scarf model that I shared in the book, if I look at what might have triggered that threat state, I might recognize that perhaps inadvertently, in the way I send that email, I might have threatened your sense of status or your sense of relatedness. So if I understand that, I'll stop discussing. You said I said no. That's not what I mean. Blah blah blah. And I would just focus on re-enhancing your sense of status or relatedness if that's what I have inadvertently triggered. So in this case, it can be manipulation because what I'm trying to do is to create the conditions for us to perform at our best for a positive solution. So it's more about understanding what's going on really and creating the conditions for a positive outcome rather than for me to get what I want from you without you even realizing it, right? That answer your question?
Alyssa:
Yeah, and you know, absolutely, because this definition, as you said in the beginning, of manipulation is getting somebody else to do something that you want them to do that they probably don't want to do. That's not what this is about. This is about a way of satisfying the others, you know, when you're having some kind of a conversation, communication, and again, it could be in the room, but it could be online, it could be, you know, over the phone, whatever. That to avoid this conflict, because or not necessarily avoid, but to minimize the conflict, I would say, is to really understand what could trigger that other person, so that you can have a conversation, so that you can actually get to a place where you both go, yeah, that's really good. That works for me too, right? It's not, I'm going to shove this down your throat because I'm the boss. It's you know, yes, I do your reviews, but in order for you to be engaged, in order for you to do your best work, I have to understand, you know, what could possibly lock you up?
I sometimes say to a lot of folks, you know, we do our best to mess with people's heads so that they get locked up, right? Like literally locked up in a place where they're terrified. And you said, in sales, we do that a lot. We do like the sales methodologies through the 90s into the early 2000s were deliberately making you freak out, fear, create the pain, right? That doesn't serve anybody. So you know, having the appreciation that if I can make this a calmer, more comfortable, and let's use the big word that you and I both love, confident, conversation. We get better outcomes. So, give me another example or two of what tends to happen that people don't even realize is happening in these corporate kind of confrontations, and then what happens as a result when they understand the machine better. Because there's so many scenarios. I just want people to be a little bit more aware what they probably don't realize today.
Bruna De Palo:
Well, there's a case study that I bring into to the book, and that is a leader, say senior leader, likely comes from you know the old leadership model, which was stick and carrot, and still trying to apply the same model, especially with the newest generations, which of course didn't work. But this is so common for leaders to think, you know, that being harsh is the best way to make people work hard. Now it might be it worked for a long time. Definitely, when I was growing up in the corporate space, that's what happened. The problem is at that time there wasn't any other alternative. The narrative was just this is how it is, and the problem is that a lot of leaders have inherited that model, and haven't realized that the world underneath has changed so quickly and so much, and that model cannot apply anymore. So the question that they should ask is, well, what is the price that I am paying for it? If I haven't dated my leadership style, which doesn't mean updating your identity, I think that's also a problem that sometimes change. I mean, oh, I need to change as a person. No, but what you want to do is to become more efficient with how you use your energy for your own benefit, even before we talk about others, the business, the revenue, and so on. Because when you don't have energy, what are you missing in your life? And how much energy do you waste by applying an old leadership model to a society that is so completely different? So I invite leaders to really reflect on what is the price that I pay for that, because you think, like my client, I I talk about on in the book, you think that you are, you know, getting the best out of people because of that harsh attitude, but when you realize what actually happens energetically, like meaning in terms of resource inside the body and inside of the brain of the other person, when you use that attitude, you might take the best out of them in the moment, but you lose them in the long run. They might be able to use their brain 100% but because of that attitude, they are using it 880% and then maybe to recover that 20% they have to make so much effort. Next week, perhaps they will be sick. Is that convenient? Is there a better or at least more efficient way to do that? So going back, Alisa, to your question at the beginning about empathy, like what do I need to be more empathetic? All I want is leading and having them doing what they want to do.
Well, that's why I don't lead my conversation talking about empathy. I talk about dynamics and mechanisms because that's the language that many leaders tend to understand. They tend to be, especially in the world where I work with, which is finance, banking, tech, automotive. They tend to be quite pragmatic, analytical, rational, often skeptical, a little bit cynical sometimes, especially when it comes to you know empathy, confidence, DNI, and these kind of topics. There's no way that you can persuade them to jump on board by talking about topics that they don't connect with, but they definitely connect with mechanics of the brain and how the brain works. Now that's a safe way for me to then bring them on another territory.
So it's not about telling them you should be more empathetic. It's about you should be more efficient so that you can have more energy at the end of the day, so that you can take your kids, you know, to the lake, to the beach, whatever. Maybe even you go restart your sport and so on. So how do you do that? Is by understanding and using it differently, and that's how client understood. Oh wow! I thought I was being my most effective by being so harsh on them, I realize there is a more efficient way, which leaves everyone in a much better place. With guess what, less turnover.
Alyssa:
Yep, I love it. I love it. And you know, if you're not a leader yourself, reading this as you said can help in your personal relationships, but can also help. You work better with your leaders, and so don't let the title necessarily dissuade you if it says for leaders. But it's I think it's for everyone, honestly. And you know, it's not just because I adore you, but it's you know I'm a long believer that the more you understand how to use your brain and how to really appreciate, like you said, the mechanics of what happens between communication between two people. It just makes it so much easier. You know, I often say confidence makes you smarter. It's got another way of kind of saying this: is that you could free up a lot more brain space to do things that are more important than having another argument. You know, so my love, we've come to our time thing, but you know it says on the cover here: if you lead people, this book will change how you think, communicate, and perform. That was from Federico Pastorelli, head of Ferrari North Europe at Ferrari, which is probably somebody a lot more impressive than me. But I will tell you that I loved this book. I loved the process of you developing the book and being so thoughtful. But it's a fun read, like I said. It's not just a straight up manual, so to speak. It's really kind of an interesting read, and I encourage everybody to get a copy. Where is the best way for them to do that? And then to reach you, to bring you in to do some kinds of workshops or book signings and all these great things that you offer companies, what's the best way to find you?
Bruna De Palo:
Okay, thank you. So the book is available on Amazon, and then there's a lot more material than what's in the book on the books website, which is on books. BrunaDipalo.com. On that website, there are a lot of extra resources that can complement what's in the book. And then, you know, for people reading the book, there's a QR code at the beginning of each chapter. I highly encourage to follow that QR code because it leads to that page where the the extra content that is mentioned in the book, especially in the footnotes, you know, I mention a lot of videos, some audios, all these resources that never, nobody ever then go on a laptop and rewrite the URL. They're all selected in a page, in these extras pages. So if you really want a full experience reading the book, I think that's a wonderful way to do so. So all my services, be one to one or team coaching or a cultural leadership program can be found on my website. It is www.nolaneball.com, and there will be from now on a series of talks and book signing online. You know, in person. So there will be plenty of events to support the book launch.
Alyssa:
Please, please, please. We will put all the links and such in the footnotes, in the show notes. Of course, the brain instruction manual for leaders. What nobody told you about working with humans. Thank you for telling us. Being the one who is spreading not only the knowledge but the empathy, the goodwill, and most importantly, just the love and friendship that you bring to the world, to me, and to everybody else. Thank you so much. I just sending kisses across the way. She, as you can hear, Bruna is Italian, but she lives in UK. So anyone who's listening from there, bring her in. She's a gem. So thank you so much, Bruna.
Bruna De Palo:
How come you're so kind? I don't know how lucky I've been in meeting you and and how it happened, but I'm so kind. Thank you so much for having me.
Alyssa:
Before we totally wrap up, I want to let you know that full transcripts and show notes for this and other Real Confidence episodes can be found on www.AmericanConfidence/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence is to give it to others, and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels. You can even give me some confidence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So for now, this is Alyssa Dver. Thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world.
Master editing done by Ben Weinstein with original music performed and composed by Jeff Mitchell, Real Confidence is a production of American Confidence Institute. All rights reserved.
