EP 137
Welcome fellow confidence crusaders, neuro nerds, and success equalizers. This is your podcast, Real Confidence. I'm your host Alyssa Dver, and I'll be sharing a bit of basic brain science, some surprising social secrets, and a touch of tough love. Why? Because I believe confidence is everyone's fundamental right and choice. So, let's get to it.
Alyssa:
Well, my friends, how do you get somebody to change their mind who just doesn't want to? Is our topic for today. And Jackie Robie is so cool, and I'm so excited that you're here with us. I want to just say, in your bio it says that you are done watching high-achieving women white-knuckle their way through success, while quietly falling apart inside. I think that phrase alone says a lot about who you are. I loved it, and you do so many things as a coach and all the groups that you have to help people, particularly women, feel more confident, and you just told me that you have a book coming out. Congratulations.
Jackie Robie:
Thank you, thank you so much.
Alyssa:
We will definitely give all kinds of links and contact information at the end, but Jackie, why don't you give a little bit more information about kind of like how and why you got into the space, and what is this? You know, what is your kind of superpower? Because I've seen it in action, it's pretty amazing.
Jackie Robie:
Thank you. I'm already blushing. Well, my origin story, I would say, really came to fruition in my 20s when I fell into a deep depression, and it was riddled with panic and paranoia, and I had to literally pick myself up off the ground. A big turning point was having a panic attack in the shower, falling down, hitting my head, and not wanting to go to the hospital, but wanting to go to work instead, that was a real telling moment of what I was experiencing, and as I worked on my mental health, what I didn't realize was that I also needed to work on my mental wellness. Those were two separate things, and now what I love to do is be able to support people, support especially women in this way of realizing they don't have to disappear in order to be successful, and how we can do that, and actually doing that is a leadership strategy, because it gets you to think different, react, respond instead of react, and reach a new level that we were never taught to reach.
Alyssa:
A new level. What do you mean by that?
Jackie Robie:
A new level in your career, in your life and in how you get to experience the world.
Alyssa:
Okay, so I could go 1000 different directions with you. We'd be here for four and a half years, which would be my pleasure, but not everybody would stay on the line with us, so let me ask you this. Why, and you know this podcast is from just is men and women, and I do agree that it's probably more female-oriented, what we're talking about here, but I know a lot of men would say they also sacrifice, maybe consciously, of course, their own well-being to go down the career path. Is it because they want to be successful and rich and all that, or is it just denial?
Jackie Robie:
Well, I would say it's even deeper than that, I work with a good amount of men as well. I tend to find that more often than not, men of color are coming to work with me, and so we carry these cultural legacy burdens of having to prove ourselves, so this is systemic oppression. It's generations of trauma of the way things were, and even though our ancestors paved the way to make things different for us. It's really difficult to let go of what that conditioning and create that change within ourselves. You see it with those of us who are Gen X or older millennials, we pave the way for mental wellness days, but do we take them?
Alyssa:
Well put my friend. Well put all right. Well, again, you've opened up all kinds of interesting thoughts in my brain here, but this idea of having to prove ourselves, I think this brings us back to the topic you and I agreed on talking about today, because again we could do a lot of different things, but in your career, maybe even in your own home, or at least with some relatives and friends, I'm sure we all have people, I actually had an experience this weekend recently that I want to put as part of our conversation, but people who their minds are set, whatever the issue, politics, the weather, anything, and I think it's a lot because they're trying to prove something to themselves to others, but I'd love to hear when we, before we get to like what we should do with those people for ourselves, what's your best guess? Why do people have such a hard time changing their mind, you know, like being open-minded, accepting different views, or even considering that maybe that they're wrong? What's behind? Is that systemic?
Jackie Robie:
Absolutely, and there's a sense of control they might be holding on to this narrative that they've been told, and if they disagree with this, it could knock down all the pillars of things that they've learned. It could take the authority and expertise away from people that they love, people that raise them, people that influence them over the years, and it's a level of feeling that's uncomfortable, and people don't like to feel uncomfortable.
Alyssa:
It's very true. It's very true. So, well put. I, yeah, I'm not saying anything I haven't said on other podcasts, but, like, my husband, very often the first word is no, and I say to him, okay, now that you got that out of your system, let's have a conversation, but you know this sense of control, or a sense of safety, and you know, tie it back to belonging, tie it back to just knowing that the world is not against you that you got it under your thumb, right? Okay, is this something that you think can be unlearned? You said before that we have to let go of it. Can people let go of it?
Jackie Robie:
Yes, they can unlearn it. And I also want to put a caveat around the phrase, let go, because it's so blase, just let it go. Yeah, right now we are like hanging on the edge of the cliff, that's what it feels like. And even though you might see people in the pool down below that have already fallen and are swimming happily, your body doesn't know that you're gripping on for dear life, so you've got to be able to do the work within you to create ease, so you can let go one finger at a time, right? And start to release and have that ease. We need to be able to feel safe in order to create change.
Alyssa:
Well, easier said than done, I think. Right? I mean, it sounds beautiful, but, like, and again, I'll use my own, because everyone's got a different situation. But I think you know there's somebody in your life that's their first response is no, right? And to change that behavior, to change that reaction, that response, and this is the body of my work too, so I really appreciate what you're saying. You just don't flip a switch and let go of a finger at a time, right? So it takes time and work, and but when you say safe, you're not talking about literally a pool, you're talking about what around other people, right?
Jackie Robie:
Yeah, so when I speak of safety, it's not in the physical safety sense. I think that is the basic need we all can immediately relate to. This is about emotional safety and your nervous system feeling regulated and safe, because you're going into survival mode way more than you realize.
Alyssa:
Absolutely, my son once said, I want to tell you something, and I don't want you to be judgmental, and I thought to myself, in the moment, am I usually, and I think as a parent that's a default, I think as a spouse. Partner, significant other, it's a default. So, do people even know that they're making other people not feel safe? Are they aware of that?
Jackie Robie:
No, they don't know. They don't realize it.
Alyssa:
Yeah, I don't think so either.
Jackie Robie:
No. No, I operate on the principle that most people are kind and wonderful and come from good intent, and that kind of thought process isn't touching, especially when you think about the people you love, and it's so interesting that we're not putting our best foot forward for the people that we love.
Alyssa:
Well, it, we think it's our best foot forward, right? We don't know, like, we're saying, you, that I don't think most people know, you know. I have a friend who, no matter, like, she's just very proud and opinionated on a lot of things, and there's been many conversations. The last one we had was about artificial intelligence, for crying out loud, and she's like, 'Nope, this is the way it is, and I'm like, no, it's not, and it's not because I'm right, it's because there are lots of other potential things and information that she doesn't know, I don't know, but to make it, like, you know, so, and it's hard, it's hard sometimes, like I say to myself, am I doing something that's triggering her, and I do think that a lot of people, it's been so tightly programmed that they don't know they're doing it to other people, they don't know they're reacting that way, right? And our irony is she actually has a degree in a PhD in psychology, so anyway, but needless to say, you know, that is definitely a response mechanism I want people to start thinking about. Do you, you know, another conversation I happen to have this weekend, and it's all all aligned here. Can you teach people to be emotionally intelligent, so that they realize they're having that response? Is that something people can learn to do?
Jackie Robie:
Yes.
Alyssa:
At any age?
Jackie Robie:
Yes.
Alyssa:
All right, so let's build the scenario out of what's happening when you come, you're dealing with somebody that doesn't want to change their mind or maybe is not even open-minded to other people's opinions. How does that make, like, what build a scenario for me? Like, what do you typically hear around this topic? Is it that somebody is in a work environment and they want to do something different, or what? What is typically the cause?
Jackie Robie:
So, to confirm, am I looking at the person who's bringing up something different, or the one who's resisting it?
Alyssa:
Oh, bringing it up, like, you know what? What do you hear more often that you know what? What causes this sense of, I don't know how to change so and so's mind? Like, what is it they're trying to do? What are they trying to change?
Jackie Robie:
So, oftentimes in the professional environment, it's bringing an idea to the table and getting pushback on the idea, yeah. So, and then idea could be anything, it could be I want to change the process, or maybe we're not thinking about this thing as broadly, we should do more research. It could be, it could be anything, that's what you're saying. Exactly, exactly.
Alyssa:
Okay, and is it necessarily somebody who is junior or junior for that room, or is it? It doesn't matter what level. it doesn't matter what level. Okay, or it could be somebody of color or not, it could be somebody female or not, it could be anybody. Okay. All right, so they go into a work, they're in a work environment, they are up against this naysayer. What's a typical reaction from the person who presented the idea? What does this look like?
Jackie Robie:
So it can create this anger, this frustration of I don't matter, this person's never going to change, I can't do anything about it, which basically leads to a hopelessness, but then there's also a story that goes with it, there's a defensiveness around this was really good and I need to play out every single scenario of why this was good and what this person has done in the past and how it's all leading up to this moment and this no and pending where they are in the scenario in their journey it could also look like freezing and not thinking their idea was good, right, and then not asked, not even trying next time, right, not even bothering exactly, either way, you're stopping the process of momentum and innovation,
Alyssa:
Of course, of course, I. I, you know, I think the reaction for most people is, and of course, there's so many variables, depends on the relationship you have with this person. If the person who said no, if the person who said no does it all the time, you're like, well, yeah, I don't know why I'm bothering, right? Like, you might have a different response, but let's just assume again that you're like, that was a really good idea, and that they should listen to me, so this, what we would call survival mode, or cave person mode, of hunkering down or getting angry, that's completely acceptable. Do you think that this is.. I mean, I think it's pervasive, you know, and whether you want to call your environment toxic or not, as a different conversation, but I think this happens constantly to everyone.
Jackie Robie:
Absolutely.
Alyssa:
What triggers somebody to say, 'Okay, that's enough. I got to figure out how to get through to this person. Is there usually a commonality of why they're like, 'It's enough, because you could just not give an idea next time and the problem's gone. But there's a moment where you say, 'Wait a minute, I have something here that needs to be heard.
Jackie Robie:
Yeah, there's a point of frustration, actually, is usually what it comes to because there's a built level of confidence in your own idea and in your own intelligence, because if you are shutting it down and not wanting to contribute, you're not at that level yet, you haven't hit that frustration.
Alyssa:
Fair enough. All right, and of course you might just decide not to deal with it because of economic or all kinds of other issues, but what I want to do is take a quick sponsor break, because when we come back, I want you to help me. That was me, I've left, I've reached a level of, like, damn, I want this person to listen to me. What should I do? I want you to help me with the steps of what I should do. All right, so we'll be right back with Jackie.
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Alyssa:
I said, Jackie, Jackie, Robi, help me through this now, because I'm in a position, hypothetically, but probably will happen later today, where I'm trying to get somebody to listen to something I have to say, and they're not, they're just closed, shutting me down, and could be for any reason, but I really want them to understand what I have to say, or at least listen to what I have to say. What's my best foot forward?
Jackie Robie:
So, first, what I'd recommend is giving yourself the safety before you start the conversation.
Alyssa:
Okay, how do I do that?
Jackie Robie:
Okay, so number one, I would do a little bit of writing, even if it's two minutes, and just get the nonsense out of your head. Whatever is happening, maybe it's doubts, maybe it's frustration, just get it out, tear up the paper, you don't need it, it's not important where you write it, just do it. If it's a phone call, or an in-person, or a Zoom prior to, if you can give yourself one to two minutes of just some deep breath, really just a count of five in, a count of five out, and just do that right, because that's going to help to regulate your nervous system. What it's also going to do for your brain, is it's going to move you away from fight, flight, freeze, appease. It's going to bring you back to center, which is where you want to be. And in the long term, it builds new neural pathways towards all the other good stuff. But in this moment, let's just get you regulated, and there's going to be boundary setting going into this conversation. I have something I want to share. I would love to be able to get through it and allow space for questions. Have an agenda, right, so that you're putting that structure around the con. Conversation, and they know this is my space. This is the time where I can come in and ask questions. That way, it's not that instant no, and that doesn't shut you down. Use your breath as a tool. You can go back and give yourself three deep breaths. There is power in a pause. So, rather than filling space, breathe, that gives you your own regulation during that meeting.
Alyssa:
Is it ever appropriate to say the person I, you need to listen to me? Please listen to me. You need to let something of that. Is it ever appropriate to basically calm out that they're not giving you that opportunity? Or, I, you know, I appreciate that you don't like the idea, but I really think it's a good idea. Is there any retort that you suggest?
Jackie Robie:
Yeah, I thought that was amazing. I mean, honestly, I I'll be real for the first time ever. A few months ago, I said in a professional setting to somebody who was speaking over me, may I finish, and that was, and you know, politely, kindly was enough to allow me the space to do that. Could it have been done differently? Probably nothing is great, and you say it calmly like that, right? And I think that makes a big difference.
Yeah, right. My head, I think my blood was probably boiling, but yeah, because we're allowed to have that space and the person is not recognizing that they're doing that, because what they're doing is they're reacting, their amygdala is on fire, right, and they're pushing, and a lot of the things that happen is when we're listening, we're not actively listening, we're listening for how we're going to respond, so creating that space, setting the stage, even of there has been pushback around this, there's been resistance, and there are reasons that are going to benefit you to listen to this.
Alyssa:
That's great. You know, we have like one minute left, and one of the things that we teach at the Institute is this notion of inside out pet peeves, and it's like I hate it when people cut me off or talk over me, or I hate it when somebody says no and does not listen to what I have to say, or clearly is not even considering what I have to say, it's all good pet peeves, and to flip it inside out, it's very simple. It's I appreciate when, and it gives you the ability to not only like kind of recenter yourself in what the value statement is, and say this is why it upsets me, but gives you the language to say to somebody, you know, I really appreciate when somebody, even if you don't agree with my initial, with my proposal initially, that you would give it some thought, right? So just start, start the sentence with "I appreciate" when it kind of just.. I think it does a lot of what you're saying. I don't know if you've ever used that, but
Jackie Robie:
I haven't. I love it so much. What it makes me think of is how I respond to my husband with a lot of things in our conversation, and I'll tell him I'm so grateful that you, and he'll look at me and go, you don't have to thank me for that. I'm like, yes, I do. It's important. I don't take it for granted.
Alyssa:
That's right. And you know, I also say, you have to train people, particularly spouses, on what your values are, so they can respect them. Otherwise, they don't know. So, I appreciate it when you don't cut me off. I appreciate it when you listen to me, or you look at me while I'm speaking, whatever it is. It kind of trains them, so it's not a bad tool. But anyway, more importantly, I want people to be able to reach you, because your work on stage, in books, in events, as I said, you're, you've got so much to offer, folks. How do they get plugged into the world of Jackie Robie?
Jackie Robie:
So, the best way to find me is probably on LinkedIn at Jackie Robie, or on Instagram at Inspire Journey Consulting, and I'm thrilled to share that I am writing a book, it's going to be coming out in the spring, called Palatable, Profitable, and Dying Inside, and this is about how success makes you disappear and ways to bring you back.
Alyssa:
Love it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I know we're going to do a whole bunch of stuff together as fellow neuron nerds, I'm looking forward to it, but for today, thank you for bringing some of your inspired everything with you. It was really awesome. Thanks so much.
Jackie Robie:
Thank you.
Alyssa:
Before we totally wrap up, I want to let you know that. Full transcripts and show notes for this and other real confidence episodes can be found on www.AmericanConfidenceInstitute.com/podcast. I also want to remind you once again that the best way to get confidence is to give it to others, and you can do it just by liking and sharing this episode on your preferred podcast and social media channels, you can even give me some confidence by noting topics you'd like me to consider for the future. So, for now, this is Alyssa Dver. Thank you for helping to bring more confidence to the world,
Master editing done by Ben Weinstein, with original music performed and composed by Jeff Mitchell. Real Confidence is a production of American Confidence Institute. All rights reserved.
